Elon Musk. Twitter. Babylon Bee.

[barnhart]

I agree that favorable treatment in the tax code, is not the same as actual government handouts.

Usually they seem similar to my eye.
Example: If I work my entire life for wages, I will be taxed for Social Security on my entire earnings but if I am a trust fund baby and live on investment money, I will be taxed at a significantly lower rate. Why shouldn't I think of that as a handout for the rich.

Social Security tax rate is 14.1% - 15.3% (roughly). Also you aren't taxed on your "entire earnings", it stops around $160,000.

Someone who has several kids, for an example, and makes an amount such as, say, $30,000, does indeed get hand outs. They get paid more money from the government than they are required to pay in taxes. So the person getting the "hand out" is indeed the lower earner

Capital Gains is 15%, unless you really make a lot of money, then it goes up to 20%. There is no cap.

Hard to see how that's a hand out...

I've never made over $130,000 so for me it is a total earnings tax. Also I have consistently paid around 30%, but I allow that does include state and federal income tax.

[Ken]

I agree that favorable treatment in the tax code, is not the same as actual government handouts.

It may not be a "handout" by whatever definition you are using. But targeted tax breaks (and other regulatory advantages) are certainly the main vehicle by which Congress subsidizes the fossil fuel industry. And tax targeted tax breaks are commonly labeled as "handouts" or "subsidies" by both Republicans and Democrats in Congress. So it is the actual language that they use.

This is what it looks like to argue with yourself.

My actual argument is that Elon Musk is uniquely unqualified and conflicted to the person taking a lead in government spending. Both as a multi-billionaire seeking massive tax cuts for himself and his kin. And as perhaps the single person who has most benefitted from government largess in the entire country. Follow the money not the words. Belt-tightening for the common folk so that people like Elon can pocket millions more is not a good look.

[JohnH]

Belt-tightening for the common folk so that people like Elon can pocket millions more is not a good look.

Could you explain to use what "belt tightening for the common folk" is being proposed

[JohnH]

I've never made over $130,000 so for me it is a total earnings tax. Also I have consistently paid around 30%, but I allow that does include state and federal income tax.

You must be in the higher end of earning then (I can't comment further on your state... that seems like a different topic?)... for a family of 4 kids earning $30,000 a year, the government actually pays them money. So this would be a "hand out"

I think "hand outs" to people who aren't earning as much money are fine and actually a good idea... it's hard to make ends meet esp with a growing family... but let's not be silly and claim that the average wealthier person is getting " hand outs " when they are the ones who are actually paying in so the rest of us can get government help...

[Robert]

Usually they seem similar to my eye.
Example: If I work my entire life for wages, I will be taxed for Social Security on my entire earnings but if I am a trust fund baby and live on investment money, I will be taxed at a significantly lower rate. Why shouldn't I think of that as a handout for the rich.

One thief robs you and takes everything, but another thief robs you and only takes your wallet leaving your watch. They are both thieves.

We have grown used to the concept that the government has a right to our money and property. This is just like the old monarchies where the ruling class owned everything and the serfs just got the honor of working for their lord.

The US Constitution guarantees that We the People OWN things and the government has not right to our possessions. We are the ruling body, not the government.

[Robert]

I've never made over $130,000 so for me it is a total earnings tax. Also I have consistently paid around 30%, but I allow that does include state and federal income tax.

You must be in the higher end of earning then (I can't comment further on your state... that seems like a different topic?)... for a family of 4 kids earning $30,000 a year, the government actually pays them money. So this would be a "hand out"

I think "hand outs" to people who aren't earning as much money are fine and actually a good idea... it's hard to make ends meet esp with a growing family... but let's not be silly and claim that the average wealthier person is getting " hand outs " when they are the ones who are actually paying in so the rest of us can get government help...

If the government was not taxing and regulating so much, a $30,000 a year income could easily cover those costs. Almost EVERY product or service you buy has government tax or regulation that drives up the cost.

[Ken]

Belt-tightening for the common folk so that people like Elon can pocket millions more is not a good look.

Could you explain to use what "belt tightening for the common folk" is being proposed

Just off the top of my head…

• Cutting Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security in various ways
• Cutting ACA subsidies which will make health insurance and prescription drugs more expensive or repealing the ACA completely which will put health insurance out of reach for many
• Cutting the CHIP (child health insurance program) which helps pay health coverage for poorer children
• Cutting federal school lunch and nutrition programs
• Shifting the tax base away from income and corporate taxes (which tax the wealthy) towards consumption taxes (sales tax, fees, and tariffs) which shift the burden towards the less affluent
• Eliminating financial aid and loans for college as well as eliminating federal aid for lower income schools and special education. Which will gut public schools in many rural and poorer parts of the country.

These are all current proposals found within the House Republican Study Committee and House Budget Committee proposals as well as Project 2025. So nothing I’ve just made up. And all of it is to “pay for” tax cuts for the extremely wealthy.

Elon says they they want to cut $2 trillion from the annual federal budget. That will require cuts far deeper than what I just listed. The entire domestic discretionary portion of the federal budget is only about $2 trillion.

[Robert]

Cutting Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security in various ways

I have only heard of cutting waste, not services.

Cutting ACA subsidies which will make health insurance and prescription drugs more expensive or repealing the ACA completely which will put health insurance out of reach for many

ACA made health care very expensive and most companies found ways around offering it because of it. Health care would be much cheaper if government was not regulating and involved in it so much. A little goes a long way. More is not better, but is actually very harmful.

Shifting the tax base away from income and corporate taxes (which tax the wealthy) towards consumption taxes (sales tax, fees, and tariffs) which shift the burden towards the less affluent

The wealthy do not pay corporate taxes. The consumer does. A consumption tax taxes those who spend more, which is the wealthy since they have more to spend.

Eliminating financial aid and loans for college as well as eliminating federal aid for lower income schools and special education.

College is a waste of money. Why fund a scam on the American people? There are a few professions that need higher education. Most do not. People need to start being productive as they move into adulthood instead of hiding out in college for 4+ years.

[Ken]

The wealthy do not pay corporate taxes. The consumer does. A consumption tax taxes those who spend more, which is the wealthy since they have more to spend.

Who do you think actually owns American corporations? How much of the net worth of Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos is in the form of stock in Amazon, Tesla, SpaceX etc. versus cash in bank accounts? Almost all of it. If Amazon or Tesla pay less taxes, who do you think benefits? The consumer in the form of cheaper products? Or the wealthy stockholders of those corporations? We know the answer to that question. Most of the last round of corporate tax breaks went straight into the pockets of wealthy stockholders in the form of stock buybacks and not to consumers in the form of lower prices or better services.

In any event, however you do the math, shifting the tax base away from income and corporate taxes and towards sales taxes will mean that the rich pay less and the poor and middle class pay more.

[ken_sylvania]

The wealthy do not pay corporate taxes. The consumer does. A consumption tax taxes those who spend more, which is the wealthy since they have more to spend.

Who do you think actually owns American corporations? How much of the net worth of Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos is in the form of stock in Amazon, Tesla, SpaceX etc. versus cash in bank accounts? Almost all of it. If Amazon or Tesla pay less taxes, who do you think benefits? The consumer in the form of cheaper products? Or the wealthy stockholders of those corporations? We know the answer to that question. Most of the last round of corporate tax breaks went straight into the pockets of wealthy stockholders in the form of stock buybacks and not to consumers in the form of lower prices or better services.

In any event, however you do the math, shifting the tax base away from income and corporate taxes and towards sales taxes will mean that the rich pay less and the poor and middle class pay more.

Wouldn't shifting toward a sales tax model mean that corporations would have to pay tax on all of their consumables? It seems to me that a 15% sales tax on goods and services used by corporations would likely generate more tax revenue than a 25% tax on their profits.