Poll: When to Appoint/Ordain in Plain Anabaptist Churches

[Ernie]

I understand the concern with K, of the church getting lopsided with too many leaders.

However, my way of addressing that problem is to help leaders learn to better value those who are not part of the leadership team, not keep the leadership team slim.

Another way to deal with this potential problem is to get some leaders involved in counseling local neighbors, or free them to do evangelism, or begin new ministries, or new church plants. I don't think you need 6 or 10 ministers to teach instruction class to young people who already know must of the material in the instruction class book anyhow.

There seems to be a dearth of mentors/counselors, evangelists, and itinerant teachers in our churches. Some are booked out 2 or 3 years. Others can't take on any evangelizing or travelling to speak because they are too overloaded with "church responsibilities".
Ordaining more qualified brothers (rather than let them sit around until there is "need" for more leaders) only exacerbates this problem, IMHO.

[R7ehr]

I am surprised that more people are not voting for J. For those of you who didn't vote for this, can you give your reasons?

Because I don’t agree with it. I think there is such a thing as having too many. Too many makes decision making more difficult. So less decisions get made.
Theoretically, if all are ordained or leaders, then none of them are realistically.

I would support ordaining more, in order to start a new church for example. But I think it isn’t great to have 40 man leadership team over a 80 man group. Why is it necessary? Can’t non-ordained men do various tasks without being ordained? Ordination is different than church membership.

[Ernie]

I am surprised that more people are not voting for J. For those of you who didn't vote for this, can you give your reasons?

Because I don’t agree with it. I think there is such a thing as having too many. Theoretically, if all are ordained or leaders, none of them are realistically.

If your church has all or mostly qualified people, then I think the church should be reaching out into the community much. much more. A church with a deep investment in the local community needs a high ratio of "leaders". You might say this is the job of lay people, but if they are qualified, why not make them part of the "leadership"?

[R7ehr]

I am surprised that more people are not voting for J. For those of you who didn't vote for this, can you give your reasons?

Because I don’t agree with it. I think there is such a thing as having too many. Theoretically, if all are ordained or leaders, none of them are realistically.

If your church has all or mostly qualified people, then the church should be reaching out into the community much more. A church with a deep investment in the local community needs a high ratio of "leaders". You might say this is the job of lay people, but if they are qualified, why not make them part of the "leadership".

What itch does making them ordained scratch, if the job is getting done anyway?

[Ernie]

What itch does making them ordained scratch, if the job is getting done anyway?

I think there is something that motivates a person whenever they feel called by both the Lord and the church to lead out with things or involve themselves in certain types of ministry. Laying on of hands reaffirms that calling, can give more confidence, and may even give them some additional grace. (depending on what you believe happens with the laying on of hands of those who meet NT qualifications.)

I even believe in doing this for women for certain roles as well.

[R7ehr]

What itch does making them ordained scratch, if the job is getting done anyway?

I think there is something that motivates a person whenever they feel called by both the Lord and the church to lead out with things or involve themselves in certain types of ministry. Laying on of hands reaffirms that calling, can give more confidence, and may even give them some additional grace. (depending on what you believe happens with the laying on of hands of those who meet NT qualifications.)

I even believe in doing this for women for certain roles as well.

So how far does this go? What does this look like? One guy is ordained to the prison ministry? Another to hand out tracts? Another to feed the homeless? Youth group leader? Does the one who feels compelled to hold gospel signs, get upset because his ministry didn’t qualify for ordination?

[Ernie]

I see you replied while I was typing the following... hopefully this at least partially answers your question...

I think every person in the body should be aiming for the character qualifications prescribed for elders and deacons. Affirming that a person has generally reached this point, via laying on of hands, can give people something to aim for. If a person figures there is little chance of experiencing the laying on of hands due to non-character disqualifications or too many more qualified people in a congregation, they may not reach their potential. This is not true for everyone, but I think it is true for many. In addition, there will be lots more people available to preach if other congregations want some guest speakers or need some help for awhile.

I've been involved with the Church Planters Forum now for about 10 years, and there is a dearth of able and available ordained persons to serve as mentors, coaches, and overseers at church plants --- helping to provide leadership, trusted wisdom, and conducting ordinations, etc.
You can ask non-ordained people to help with these sorts of things, but if folks have never served on a church leadership team before, they are less useful. Besides, most Anabaptists want ordained people to conduct ordinations, so there needs to be ordained people who are competent, available, and suited for the role. I don't know why a few people need to run around doing all the ordinations and preaching and leaving their families at home. Why not share out the work load?

[Ernie]

So how far does this go? What does this look like? One guy is ordained to the prison ministry? Another to hand out tracts? Another to feed the homeless? Youth group leader? Does the one who feels compelled to hold gospel signs, get upset because his ministry didn’t qualify for ordination?

Let's say someone is really into prison ministry and his proven his stability and commitment. I think he could be ordained as an evangelist or a shepherd.

Let's say someone is really good at administration. He could be used to give pastoral oversight to ministries and help churches that need help with administration. Some ministries want ordained folks on their boards, and some want pastoral committees on their boards.

Let's say someone is good at teaching. Ordaining him would allow him to be used as a teacher at churches that require someone to be ordained in order to be the main speaker at a week of meetings or at weekend meetings. John Coblentz's church ordained him as a "teacher at large" many years ago. He did not have local responsibilities. This gave him many opportunities to teach and preach that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise. It also confirmed in the congregation's mind that this was his mission and that he was not shirking the home church by travelling around. Nor was he operating outside of the congregations blessing and commission. This sort of calling has its own sets of challenges. Such folks need a home team to support them and mentor them. John was very gifted and it got to the place that he could not attend a funeral without a line forming in the cemetery to talk with him, before the committal had even taken place. He eventually realized he needed a team around him to help him navigate the challenges this put on him and his family. What if the Mennonites had prepared and ordained 50 John Coblentz's? Then he might not have been singled out so much.

All of these folks I mention above could immediately begin getting accustomed to preaching in their home churches once they are ordained if they are suited for that (since Mennonites want people ordained before they preach at certain places) and once they get some experience under their belt, they could be used elsewhere.
These folks don't have to be part of the local leadership team if there is concern that the local leadership team could get too lopsided.

[Ernie]

And whether it should be this way or not, if a church has an ordination, and some qualified brothers are not ordained, most who are not ordained will spend more time with material things in the succeeding months, as compared with what they would do if they were ordained.
Ordination or laying on of hands or whatever you want to call it will give a lot of men more motivation to use as much time as they can for non-material pursuits.

[Judas Maccabeus]

In many Old Order Mennonite churches, and some conservative Mennonite churches, ordained folks need to be away from their families most evenings of the week. Plus, they will now spend hours in sermon prep, in addition to earning a livelihood. And then the ordained family is going to be living in a glass house and their every move critiqued.
No wonder there is so much crying and sniffling at Mennonite ordinations.

I think all of this is completely unnecessary.

In our circles, 2 additional nights a week is the norm, maybe three on occasions. That being said, we are small congregations.

I actually spend as much time prepping for Sunday School as I do for preaching. That being said, both are "expository" works, so they are the same process. One is simply longer and more detailed than the other.