Poll: When to Appoint/Ordain in Plain Anabaptist Churches

[Ernie]

This is a thread to discuss the question of when to appoint/ordain in Plain Anabaptist churches.

[Ernie]

In most churches other than Plain Anabaptist churches, pastors and leaders are salaried. Sometimes churches don't have the leadership they need because they cannot afford to hire more. Others have difficulty replacing a pastor or leader that should be replaced for any number of reasons.

In Plain Anabaptist churches, the need for more leaders is never the result of finances, because few if any in the church are receiving a salary. Any lack of leadership has to do with church protocol, the preferences of the leadership team, the preferences of the congregation, etc.

I have never understood why churches with several qualified brothers in the church would only appoint/ordain one or two of them, and not all of them. What I hear over and over is that deacons and pastors are really busy and overloaded which keeps them from being able to do the mentoring, shepherding that is needed, or it delays the starting of new ministries and churches. It seems that this does not happen because Plain Anabaptist churches have an ideal number of ordained people per church, and they have a hard time thinking outside of the box they've always known.
For example: Most Mennonite churches only have one or two deacons per church (who also preach at times) as compared with Brethren who have quite a few deacons per church. Many Mennonites never consider this and option because they've never done it that way before.

I know of one Amish-Mennonite church that was given the opportunity to begin a ministry and church planting effort oversees. One of the bishops felt they needed to turn down the request because he had lost his wife and was feeling overwhelmed. Some of the other ordained brothers came to him and asked him whether they could proceed with the request, if he could be relieved of any responsibility to oversee the work. He consented, and to this day, he appreciates his fellow ministers coming to him with a counter proposal. I admire him for his humility and willingness to let others lead out without his involvement. Not all leaders are willing to release control of such things.

[mike]

Whether a church needs more leaders really depends on how they look at the role of leaders vs. lay members. If the church saddles ordained leaders with all preaching, all pastoring, and all important decision-making, then they should probably ordain as many leaders as it takes to get all of that done. If a church involves lay members in preaching and important decision-making at least to some degree, they can operate without as many ordained leaders in my opinion.

[Ernie]

Whether a church needs more leaders really depends on how they look at the role of leaders vs. lay members. If the church saddles ordained leaders with all preaching, all pastoring, and all important decision-making, then they should probably ordain as many leaders as it takes to get all of that done. If a church involves lay members in preaching and important decision-making at least to some degree, they can operate without as many ordained leaders in my opinion.

This is definitely true.

However, most church leaders want to at least be present when decisions are being made and future plans for the church are being made, (which I think is good) and they can only attend so many meetings per week. This is when I think it is helpful to have more leaders appointed, so that a few do not need to be present for every meeting. In a church I was part of in the past, some in the church didn't want to certain things to happen unless a church recognized leader was present. I understood their concern but am more concerned about people of character leading out with things rather than putting the emphasis on people who have had hands laid on them. (although that is important for some roles.)

I readily concur with the advice that Moses' father-in-law gave him about divvying out the responsibilities.

[Ernie]

In many Old Order Mennonite churches, and some conservative Mennonite churches, ordained folks need to be away from their families most evenings of the week. Plus, they will now spend hours in sermon prep, in addition to earning a livelihood. And then the ordained family is going to be living in a glass house and their every move critiqued.
No wonder there is so much crying and sniffling at Mennonite ordinations.

I think all of this is completely unnecessary.

[mike]

In many Old Order Mennonite churches, and some conservative Mennonite churches, ordained folks need to be away from their families most evenings of the week. Plus, they will now spend hours in sermon prep, in addition to earning a livelihood. And then the ordained family is going to be living in a glass house and their every move critiqued.
No wonder there is so much crying and sniffling at Mennonite ordinations.

I think all of this is completely unnecessary.

Absolutely, and one of our newly ordained men told me yesterday they have something going on every single night this week.

[Neto]

B. The churches I have been part of have typically appointed/ordained as soon as the church or the current leadership believes that additional help is needed.

C. The churches I have been part of have typically appointed/ordained in advance of leadership needs so that there are leaders with experience already in the saddle before additional help is needed.

I would say that our congregation is somewhere between B & C, depending on who defines the need. We currently have 4 ministers, and another ordination coming up. They are doing this because of a need that will come up later next year, but there has not been any voiced need regarding out-reach development. (I think there is a need to have this in mind almost constantly, but others apparently do not agree.)

H. If no one in the congregation is generally qualified, I favor giving brothers in the congregation a temporary assignment until such a time as they do become qualified, assuming the brothers have some leadership ability and meet many of the qualifications.

I ALMOST checked this one, but it depends on how “leadership ability” is defined, or perceived in the lives of the brethren. This intersects with my main hesitancy in regards to the so-called “lay ministry” model. I observe too much attention given to “natural leadership ability” first and foremost, before other more important (to me at least, and I think I see that in Scripture as well) qualities, such as a compassionate pastor’s heart. Caring for people as a pastor does not require the same level of charisma and leadership ability as is generally considered essential. The result is that people look to business acumen as an indication of qualification for spiritual leadership. Some of those abilities are of considerable importance in preaching, but I’d like to think that the ‘ministers’ spend more time ‘ministering’ and ‘pastoring’ than the time spent in preaching. I DO want to make it clear that I know that it takes a great deal of study and prayer time to properly prepare for a sermon (as it also does for a Sunday School teacher). I also took a homiletics class in Bible college, and have preached from time to time as well (although not in any ‘plain church’), so I am not completely just an ‘observer’.

L. Other

My comments above are the reason I checked this one, which I re-tagged as “L.”.

[Ernie]

I ALMOST checked this one, but it depends on how “leadership ability” is defined, or perceived in the lives of the brethren. This intersects with my main hesitancy in regards to the so-called “lay ministry” model. I observe too much attention given to “natural leadership ability” first and foremost, before other more important (to me at least, and I think I see that in Scripture as well) qualities, such as a compassionate pastor’s heart. Caring for people as a pastor does not require the same level of charisma and leadership ability as is generally considered essential. The result is that people look to business acumen as an indication of qualification for spiritual leadership.

Yes, definitely!

There are personalities who...
1. Look down on anyone who is not passionate about evangelism or humanitarian aid
2. Look down on anyone who is not pastoral and a counselor
3. Look down on anyone not gifted in administration
4. Look down on anyone who is not a gifted teacher
5. Look down on anyone who is not charismatic

None of these folks should be in leadership, even for a short time. They are not humble, Christlike leaders.

Any of the above can make good leaders in various realms if they don't try to keep the others from excelling. Churches struggle when one of these emerges as the "king" gifting in a church, or when someone gets asked to fill a role that he was not suited for.

[Ernie]

In many Old Order Mennonite churches, and some conservative Mennonite churches, ordained folks need to be away from their families most evenings of the week. Plus, they will now spend hours in sermon prep, in addition to earning a livelihood. And then the ordained family is going to be living in a glass house and their every move critiqued.
No wonder there is so much crying and sniffling at Mennonite ordinations.

I think all of this is completely unnecessary.

Absolutely, and one of our newly ordained men told me yesterday they have something going on every single night this week.

When this is happening, there are either not enough leaders, or else the leaders don't know how to delegate responsibilities and empower sub-leaders.

For the four of you who voted for letter C above, are you saying that your leaders have sufficient time for family interactions during the week?

[Ernie]

I am surprised that more people are not voting for J. For those of you who didn't vote for this, can you give your reasons?