Christianity can be taxonomically divided into six main groups: the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Protestantism includes many groups which do not share any ecclesiastical governance and have widely diverging beliefs and practices. Major Protestant branches include Adventism, Anabaptism, Anglicanism, Baptists, Lutheranism, Methodism, Moravianism, Quakerism, Pentecostalism, Plymouth Brethren, Reformed Christianity, and Waldensianism.
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Discussion in this section is to be informative not combative. Ask questions and accept answers. No challenging of others faith or beliefs will be tolerated.
Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:41 pm
There are some current trends in Anglicanism that align well with the anabaptist tradition. Note: these are trends I have seen from Anglican authors, and may or may not speak to the tradition as a whole!
1) A gospel that centers on the Kingdom of God and Jesus as King. I have seen this from N. T. Wright, Scott McKnight, and Matthew Bates.
2) The "new perspectives on Paul", which, roughly speaking, argues that Paul was arguing against the importance of the Jewish Law and not the concept of "law" in any form. The implication is that we are still under God's law, which is fulfilled and revealed in the incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ. The secondary implication is obedience to the Sermon on the Mount.
N.T. Wright is a proponent of the NPoP. Bates wrote a great book called "salvation by allegience alone", and McKnight wrote the short, easy to read "The King Jesus Gospel", all of which emphasize the fact that obedience plays a role in our salvation.
3) A call to peace. NT Wright has a bit on this in his book "Simply Christian".
Thank you for some context for Wright's New perspective on Paul. I've heard him speak around it but still couldn't grasp the scope of it. Generally I'm skeptical of new perspectives in biblical interpretation but this doesn't seem new to me at all, maybe new to those soaked in the reform tradition. This seems like the same old Paul I learned about from childhood.
Yes, this is, in my understanding, a natural reading of Paul in context. But thebProtestant Reformation (driven as it was by Luther's frustration with "performing" his salvation by obeying the ordinances of the Roman Catholic church) formed the theology that Jesus saves not not just from sin, but from the law, and from our own guilt. "The law" in the mind of the reformers was not just the Jewish Torah, but the entire concept of "law" as in anything that can be observed to be "rules" or anything to which a response would be "obedience".
It was explained to me in a reformed setting that the reformers "discovered" that "faith" meant "resting" and implied such an absence of activity that any of these things (rules, laws, obedience, etc.) That are active and not passive, and are therefore contrary to faith. This came directly from Luther's experience of frustration as an Augustinian monk. It was clearly why Luther wanted to canonize the letter from James.
The NPP, as it was explained to me, went against what the reformers "discovered" because it suggested that "faith" (Greek: pistis) could include a much more active expression than mere "resting". It was told to me that NT Wright was a dangerous source for evangelical Christians because he flirted with the NPP.
1 x
The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand we are obliged to act accordingly.
-Søren Kierkegaard
Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:41 pm
There are some current trends in Anglicanism that align well with the anabaptist tradition. Note: these are trends I have seen from Anglican authors, and may or may not speak to the tradition as a whole!
1) A gospel that centers on the Kingdom of God and Jesus as King. I have seen this from N. T. Wright, Scott McKnight, and Matthew Bates.
2) The "new perspectives on Paul", which, roughly speaking, argues that Paul was arguing against the importance of the Jewish Law and not the concept of "law" in any form. The implication is that we are still under God's law, which is fulfilled and revealed in the incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ. The secondary implication is obedience to the Sermon on the Mount.
N.T. Wright is a proponent of the NPoP. Bates wrote a great book called "salvation by allegience alone", and McKnight wrote the short, easy to read "The King Jesus Gospel", all of which emphasize the fact that obedience plays a role in our salvation.
3) A call to peace. NT Wright has a bit on this in his book "Simply Christian".
Thank you for some context for Wright's New perspective on Paul. I've heard him speak around it but still couldn't grasp the scope of it. Generally I'm skeptical of new perspectives in biblical interpretation but this doesn't seem new to me at all, maybe new to those soaked in the reform tradition. This seems like the same old Paul I learned about from childhood.
Yes, this is, in my understanding, a natural reading of Paul in context. But thebProtestant Reformation (driven as it was by Luther's frustration with "performing" his salvation by obeying the ordinances of the Roman Catholic church) formed the theology that Jesus saves not not just from sin, but from the law, and from our own guilt. "The law" in the mind of the reformers was not just the Jewish Torah, but the entire concept of "law" as in anything that can be observed to be "rules" or anything to which a response would be "obedience".
It was explained to me in a reformed setting that the reformers "discovered" that "faith" meant "resting" and implied such an absence of activity that any of these things (rules, laws, obedience, etc.) That are active and not passive, and are therefore contrary to faith. This came directly from Luther's experience of frustration as an Augustinian monk. It was clearly why Luther wanted to decanonize the letter from James.
The NPP, as it was explained to me, went against what the reformers "discovered" because it suggested that "faith" (Greek: pistis) could include a much more active expression than mere "resting". It was told to me that NT Wright was a dangerous source for evangelical Christians because he flirted with the NPP.
(minor correction above)
Wright and Piper have written several books each arguing against the other on Pauline perspectives. Wright is wittier and, in my estimation, more [w]right.
ohio jones wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:33 pm(minor correction above)
Wright and Piper have written several books each arguing against the other on Pauline perspectives. Wright is wittier and, in my estimation, more [w]right.
Funny you should make this pun. At the Bible study where the teacher went on a tangent to warn us about the teaching of N.T., another brother chimed in with "sounds more like N.T. Wrong!"
I have also heard his name used to praise his personal translation of the New Testament as "the NT done (W)right".
His translation is called "The Kingdom New Testament" by the way.
0 x
The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand we are obliged to act accordingly.
-Søren Kierkegaard
When the Anglican Church of North American began in 2009, it had 703 congregations in the US and Canada.
Fifteen years later it has 1013 congregations.
It looks like attendance has increased by 15,000 in 15 years.
Congregations in 2009 = 703
Membership in 2009 = 100,000 (estimated)
Attendance in 2009 = 69,197
Congregations in 2024 = 1,013
Membership in 2024 = 128,114
Attendance in 2024 = 84,794
I wonder how the attendance vs. membership compares with Evangelical congregations in the US and Canada. I assume that membership includes infants and children.
In most Conservative Anabaptist churches, I think attendance is generally higher on the average Sunday, as compared with communion Sunday when only members and their children are present.
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:10 pm
When the Anglican Church of North American began in 2009, it had 703 congregations in the US and Canada.
Fifteen years later it has 1013 congregations.
It looks like attendance has increased by 15,000 in 15 years.
Congregations in 2009 = 703
Membership in 2009 = 100,000 (estimated)
Attendance in 2009 = 69,197
Congregations in 2024 = 1,013
Membership in 2024 = 128,114
Attendance in 2024 = 84,794
I wonder how the attendance vs. membership compares with Evangelical congregations in the US and Canada. I assume that membership includes infants and children.
In most Conservative Anabaptist churches, I think attendance is generally higher on the average Sunday, as compared with communion Sunday when only members and their children are present.
Pretty simple way to increase numbers of membership, is to require it at birth, and then never excommunicate anyone, even if they have decided to attend a different church, just keep their name on the list.
I’d like to see how many of them have had their original, membership removed via voluntary or discipline. I doubt they bother with that.
Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:10 pm
When the Anglican Church of North American began in 2009, it had 703 congregations in the US and Canada.
Fifteen years later it has 1013 congregations.
It looks like attendance has increased by 15,000 in 15 years.
Congregations in 2009 = 703
Membership in 2009 = 100,000 (estimated)
Attendance in 2009 = 69,197
Congregations in 2024 = 1,013
Membership in 2024 = 128,114
Attendance in 2024 = 84,794
I wonder how the attendance vs. membership compares with Evangelical congregations in the US and Canada. I assume that membership includes infants and children.
In most Conservative Anabaptist churches, I think attendance is generally higher on the average Sunday, as compared with communion Sunday when only members and their children are present.
Pretty simple way to increase numbers of membership, is to require it at birth, and then never excommunicate anyone, even if they have decided to attend a different church, just keep their name on the list.
I’d like to see how many of them have had their original, membership removed via voluntary or discipline. I doubt they bother with that.
Many churches will leave someone on the membership for a couple years but will take them off. The ACNA numbers are probably pretty close. If the average congregant attends 3 out of 4 Sundays, that decreases the attendance. Of course there are people attending that aren’t yet members.
It’s the mainline churches that are notorious for membership bloat. The Episcopal Church has 1.6 million members with 373,000 membership.
cooper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 9:08 pmIt’s the mainline churches that are notorious for membership bloat. The Episcopal Church has 1.6 million members with 373,000 membership.
Did you mean 373,000 attendance?
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:10 pm
When the Anglican Church of North American began in 2009, it had 703 congregations in the US and Canada.
Fifteen years later it has 1013 congregations.
It looks like attendance has increased by 15,000 in 15 years.
Congregations in 2009 = 703
Membership in 2009 = 100,000 (estimated)
Attendance in 2009 = 69,197
Congregations in 2024 = 1,013
Membership in 2024 = 128,114
Attendance in 2024 = 84,794
I wonder how the attendance vs. membership compares with Evangelical congregations in the US and Canada. I assume that membership includes infants and children.
In most Conservative Anabaptist churches, I think attendance is generally higher on the average Sunday, as compared with communion Sunday when only members and their children are present.
This is almost certainly not due to new church plantings and recruitment of new members. It is most likely due to existing Episcopal churches changing affiliations between 2009 and 2024.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 2:33 pmThis is almost certainly not due to new church plantings and recruitment of new members. It is most likely due to existing Episcopal churches changing affiliations between 2009 and 2024.
This is not what I heard from the Anglican panelist. He claimed the opposite.
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
ACNA had an influx of charismatics and evangelicals who want deeper spirituality. Theres a small movement towards liturgy. There are three ACNA churches that left the denomination because they wanted to affirm same sex marriage. This was quite distressing to the former Episcopalians who founded the ACNA because of the SSM issue. ACNA is very diverse and at times is a transitional denomination for people going different directions.
