Anabaptists and the Authority of Scripture

[Judas Maccabeus]

So if I’m getting this right the old orders see a lot less change in their teachings because they don’t have seminary trained preachers? Is that right?

That and more isolation from the pressures of mainstream media.

[Nomad]

A question for those who don't see much Christocentrism in early Anabaptism, how do you account for the rejection of the church state, war, swearing oaths ECT..

What does the Bible teach...

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the final and perfect word and is superior to all other revelations.

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Here the superiority and authority of Jesus over the message of the prophets is attributed to his identity as the Son, the heir, the creator, and image of God as well as his pre-existence.

Hebrews 2
We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

In chapter 2 the message delivered by Jesus is held above previous messages even though they were delivered through angelic messengers.

Hebrews 3
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. 2 He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house. 3 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5 “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,”[a] bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

Here the authority relationship between Jesus and Moses is compared to a house servant (Moses) and the builder of the house. Jesus is given title of "Son over God's house" indicating a superior authority. Moses is said to "bear witness" to future, superior message through Jesus.

Yes. Jesus is preeminent and the one whom we look to for fulfillment of all things. He is our salvation and superior to all. He is so superior that all things will be fulfilled by Him from the beginning to the end. Everything in the Bible will literally reach its fulness at His 2nd coming. Hebrews also states that Jesus is currently at the right hand of the Father waiting.

Hebrews 10:11-13
[11] And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; [12] but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, [13] waiting from that time until His enemies are put as a footstool for His feet.

The fact that Jesus is "waiting" and that He is "waiting" to put down His enemies would tell me that there is still things left for Him to fulfill. In other words, His job is not yet finished. Thats where I would also point to what Peter says in Acts:

Acts 3:19-21
[19] Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; [20] and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, [21] whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

The fact that he connects Jesus return to a time of restoration and THEN links it to the words of the Prophets of the OT would tell us that some of the Prophets words of the earths restoration are still yet to be fulfilled. This would still make OT prophecy relevant to the believer. That doesn't diminish Jesus. It elevates Him.

[cmbl]

Edsel Burdge's "History of the Anabaptists - Part 9" has some discussion of Swiss Brethren views on the relation of the Old and New Testaments and a Christocentric hermenutic.

Burdge's discussion of the Frankenthal debate between Swiss Brethren and magisterial Reformers (he sometimes says Lutheran, sometimes Reformed) starts at 43:51.
He gets into the topic of the Old and New Testaments and Christocentrism at 49:09.



A couple highlights:
The Reformed view:

The Old Testament Scripture is as valid to the Christian as the New Testament...The New Testament accepts the Old Testament as authoritative in the principal doctrines of Christian faith and conduct...We say that the New Testament does not require anything else concerning Christian conduct than that which was also required in the Scriptures of the Old Testament.

The Swiss Brethren:

The New Testament is the final authority in the principal doctrines of faith and conduct...Concerning conduct we hold that there is a difference between the teaching of Moses and the Prophets and Christ and his Apostles, for the one rules through the law while the other through evangelical freedom...The New Testament fulfilled the Old Testament and thus superseded it.

Burdge comments, "[The Magisterial Reformers] did not succeed in getting the Anabaptists to either throw away the Old Testament or to say it stood on equal footing with the New."

In the debate, Rauff Bisch, summarizing the Swiss Brethren position, said,

We declared before that we consider the Old Testament valid in the doctrines of Christian faith only in so far as the New Testament permits...We have previously expressed that we do not want to judge Christ according to Moses, but Moses according to Christ, and that Moses was a servant, but Christ spoke as a Son in his own house...Therefore, as far as conduct is concerned,...Christ must be held above Moses - for we hold there is a great difference between the Jewish and the Christian life.

[JohnL]

How do Anabaptists groups interpret the verses below and put them into practice?

Matthew 5:17-20
English Standard Version
Christ Came to Fulfill the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

[joshuabgood]

How do Anabaptists groups interpret the verses below and put them into practice?

Matthew 5:17-20
English Standard Version
Christ Came to Fulfill the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

A relevant question is "what is meant by fulfil." Another, perhaps more relevant questions is, what is meant by "until heaven and earth passes away?" Some might feel that is a metaphorical description of the full end of the old covenant when the church age formally began after the death and resurrection of Christ, the coming of the Spirit, and symbolized by the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. And in harmony with what Jesus prophesied in the Oliviet Sermon in Matt 24-25.

[cmbl]

How do Anabaptists groups interpret the verses below and put them into practice?

Matthew 5:17-20
English Standard Version
Christ Came to Fulfill the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

One way is by obeying the Sermon on the Mount and teaching others to do the same.

[JohnH]

I believe the New Testament teaches us the exact details of how to obey the Law… perfectly fulfilled by following Christ…

[Nomad]

How do Anabaptists groups interpret the verses below and put them into practice?

Matthew 5:17-20
English Standard Version
Christ Came to Fulfill the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I've heard it taught that Jesus was telling the people what His task ahead was: to fulfill the Law. This fulfilling of the Law by Jesus is closely linked to individuals hearts and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This wasn't a new message, many of the prophets in the OT had also foretold this as a future event from their time (Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26, and Jeremiah 31:33 to name a few...).

The fact that it shouldn't be abolished, but rather taught, is because the Law is the schoolmaster that points us to Christ and Christ Himself taught His followers from the Law. The Pharisees followed the letter of the Law but they did not follow God with their hearts...which is ultimately what God wants and why we need His Spirit. Thats why I think He said that our righteousness must exceed the Pharisees.

[MattY]

How do Anabaptists groups interpret the verses below and put them into practice?

Matthew 5:17-20
English Standard Version
Christ Came to Fulfill the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

A relevant question is "what is meant by fulfil." Another, perhaps more relevant questions is, what is meant by "until heaven and earth passes away?" Some might feel that is a metaphorical description of the full end of the old covenant when the church age formally began after the death and resurrection of Christ, the coming of the Spirit, and symbolized by the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. And in harmony with what Jesus prophesied in the Oliviet Sermon in Matt 24-25.

I'm totally in favor of the view that Christians are not under the Law of Moses due to it being fulfilled in Christ. Christians are not under the commandments of the Law and do not need to keep them unless they are taken up by the New Testament. This is supported by Paul's argument in Romans and Galatians as well as Christ's teachings where he superseded the Law of Moses - no argument there. And also by Jeremiah 31:31-34 - we have Christ's law written on our hearts. In actual ethical practice, some things have changed but very little is lost, since the New Testament takes up all of the 10 Commandments for Christian practice, except for Sabbath-keeping. (To address a question in another thread, this is why Christians don't keep the Sabbath. It's also why making Sunday into a new Christian Sabbath, in the sense of a law, is misguided. So buying things or going out to eat on Sunday is forbidden or perhaps something that you get "judged" for - but that's not supported by the NT. We have the creation principle that a day of rest is a good thing, but there's no law requiring or regulating it. Romans 14 applies here).

However, making "till heaven and earth pass away" mean "in about 40 years or so" seems to be standing that verse on its head. The OT is true, God-breathed, and profitable for reading and study, doctrine, reproof, correction, etc. - when understood in the light of Christ and His first and second comings. (The second one is important too - as Nomad has said, contra preterism, the prophecies haven't all happened yet). Christ is giving reassurance of its continuing truth and relevance in light of His fulfillment of it, not saying "oh all these things are going to pass away from it in just a little while after I fulfill them." This is again supported by Jeremiah 31 (vss. 35-37), and could in fact be an allusion to it. If the decrees of the sun shining by day and the moon and stars shining by night would pass away, and if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of earth below searched out, would the descendants of Israel be rejected because of all that they had done. It's a "no it's not going to happen" declaration, not a "yes it will happen, when x happens" type of statement.

[MattY]

Also, superseding the law of Moses and having the law of Christ written on our hearts is one thing. Making OT depictions of God (e.g. wrath against his enemies, or his commands for Israel to wage war on the Canaanites) into something that was misunderstood or not true, and has to be reinterpreted because of the Sermon on the Mount, is definitely another thing. That would be where sitting in judgment on the OT comes in. The progress of revelation from the OT to the NT - and all through Scripture, in the progress of the OT itself, is from less to greater revelation, not to correction of past revelation. The God depicted in the OT is the same as the God depicted in the NT, not least because the NT also shows the wrath and judgment of God - and of Christ Himself, and the OT also shows the great compassion and patience of God. The nonresistance/nonviolence and sacrificial love of Christ show his love for his enemies. But that's not the sum total of what Scripture has to say about sin and rejection of Christ. Ultimately, if people continue to reject Christ, there is not nonresistance and nonviolence for them to look forward to, "but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries." (Heb. 10:27).