Inside and Outside the Cup

[Bootstrap]

Do monks and nuns face these accusations, or are they exempt? Anyone know?

Is any Christian exempt from these concerns? I think they are central to the Gospel. They are not aimed only at plain Christians. Other Christians find other ways to focus on the outside of the cup ....

[ohio jones]

Did you think I quoted that passage to talk about clothing we should put on?

Perhaps you could clarify. What did you mean in the highlighted part below?

Notice it says "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". Jesus is not speaking negatively about sheep's clothing. He's talking about bad fruit coming from hypocritical prophets who wear sheep's clothing. It will become evident at some point that such people are hypocrites. He says it's important to observe the fruit coming from a person's life. I believe Jesus loves to see His people wearing sheep's clothing AND bearing good fruits.

In the passage we were discussing, sheep's clothing didn't seem to be a good thing.

Wearing sheep's clothing is disguising the fact that you're not actually a sheep. Better to just be a sheep.

[ken_sylvania]

Did you think I quoted that passage to talk about clothing we should put on?

Perhaps you could clarify. What did you mean in the highlighted part below?

Notice it says "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". Jesus is not speaking negatively about sheep's clothing. He's talking about bad fruit coming from hypocritical prophets who wear sheep's clothing. It will become evident at some point that such people are hypocrites. He says it's important to observe the fruit coming from a person's life. I believe Jesus loves to see His people wearing sheep's clothing AND bearing good fruits.

In the passage we were discussing, sheep's clothing didn't seem to be a good thing.

I see no negative reflection against sheep's clothing in that passage. What I do see is a warning against ravening wolves.
A warning against counterfeit currency is not an implication that real currency isn't a good thing.

[Bootstrap]

I see no negative reflection against sheep's clothing in that passage. What I do see is a warning against ravening wolves.
A warning against counterfeit currency is not an implication that real currency isn't a good thing.

But I think Jesus tells us the inside of the cup is the real currency. If you want to be clean, clean the inside of the cup, not the outside - and the outside will be clean too!

Here's Matthew:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

Here's Luke:

Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.

So the best way to clean the outside of the cup, according to Jesus, is to clean the inside of the cup. And that includes our good deeds. It includes mercy and justice and practicing the weightier matters of the law with others. It's not just thinking nice thoughts - that's not what Jesus means by the inside of the cup.

If we do that, it will have visible fruit:

You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

But we do not do these things in order to be seen:

“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

[GaryK]

Did you think I quoted that passage to talk about clothing we should put on?

Perhaps you could clarify. What did you mean in the highlighted part below?

Notice it says "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". Jesus is not speaking negatively about sheep's clothing. He's talking about bad fruit coming from hypocritical prophets who wear sheep's clothing. It will become evident at some point that such people are hypocrites. He says it's important to observe the fruit coming from a person's life. I believe Jesus loves to see His people wearing sheep's clothing AND bearing good fruits.

In the passage we were discussing, sheep's clothing didn't seem to be a good thing.

Wearing sheep's clothing is disguising the fact that you're not actually a sheep. Better to just be a sheep.

Yes, that was my point. Wool on a sheep belongs. Wool on a wolf doesn't. I believe Jesus desires for us to be genuine sheep that do the things sheep do.

[Bootstrap]

Wearing sheep's clothing is disguising the fact that you're not actually a sheep. Better to just be a sheep.

Yes, that was my point. Wool on a sheep belongs. Wool on a wolf doesn't. I believe Jesus desires for us to be genuine sheep that do the things sheep do.

I think we all agree on that. I liked the way Ohio Jones explained it. That's a lot of what I am saying in this thread.

[GaryK]

What's striking to me is that you left out a particular passage that specifically talks about how women should and should not dress.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 KJV 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

The first part of this basically says women should not dress to be seen. But it doesn't talk very specifically about how they should dress, it does not call for uniformity in dress, and it does not call for building a culture around distinctive dress.

The second part emphasizes what women should adorn themselves with instead of these fancy clothes- good deeds that are fitting for women who profess to worship God. The proof that they do worship God is in these good deeds, not in their clothing. Which is consistent with the other passages I quoted.

What makes you say that the proof that they do worship God is not exemplified by wearing modest clothing. Paul says that godly women should wear modest clothing and not wear costly array. Obedience to this can very well be indicative of being sheep.

It's just as possible to do good deeds and not be clean on the inside as it is to wear modest clothes and not be clean on the inside.

Matthew 7:22-24 New King James Version
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

[Neto]

Is 'modest clothing' and 'plain clothing' the same thing (in the context of this discussion)? I thought that 'plain clothing' was a type of modest clothing that is to some degree prescribed by certain congregations or groups. (That is, akin to saying that a banana is a type of fruit. These are general and specific categories.)

So if the usage here is referring to the exact same thing, please clarify.

[GaryK]

Is 'modest clothing' and 'plain clothing' the same thing (in the context of this discussion)? I thought that 'plain clothing' was a type of modest clothing that is to some degree prescribed by certain congregations or groups. (That is, akin to saying that a banana is a type of fruit. These are general and specific categories.)

So if the usage here is referring to the exact same thing, please clarify.

In our church, we do not require a particular type of modest clothing. But, I'm guessing the people in our town would describe what the ladies wear as old fashioned.

[Bootstrap]

The first part of this basically says women should not dress to be seen. But it doesn't talk very specifically about how they should dress, it does not call for uniformity in dress, and it does not call for building a culture around distinctive dress.

The second part emphasizes what women should adorn themselves with instead of these fancy clothes- good deeds that are fitting for women who profess to worship God. The proof that they do worship God is in these good deeds, not in their clothing. Which is consistent with the other passages I quoted.

What makes you say that the proof that they do worship God is not exemplified by wearing modest clothing. Paul says that godly women should wear modest clothing and not wear costly array. Obedience to this can very well be indicative of being sheep.

I think "but with good deeds" is pretty clear here, in both Greek and most translations. Adorning themselves ... not with ... but with:

I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

I think it's also helpful to look at the other places where "good deeds" appears in the Bible to see what kind of things it is used to describe. Reading each of these passages in context, taking a little time ... to me, "good deeds" is not about clothing choices.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... ersion=NIV

It's just as possible to do good deeds and not be clean on the inside as it is to wear modest clothes and not be clean on the inside.

Matthew 7:22-24 New King James Version
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

If you "practice lawlessness", I don't think your life is a life of good deeds.