Inside and Outside the Cup

[Bootstrap]

Notice it says "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". Jesus is not speaking negatively about sheep's clothing. He's talking about bad fruit coming from hypocritical prophets who wear sheep's clothing. It will become evident at some point that such people are hypocrites. He says it's important to observe the fruit coming from a person's life. I believe Jesus loves to see His people wearing sheep's clothing AND bearing good fruits.

If someone reads that passage and concludes that it teaches us to put on sheep's clothing just like those wolves, I think they are missing the point of the passage.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

I highlighted what I think that is about. If we want to be sheep, these are things we should do. It doesn't talk about clothing we should put on, it talks about clothing other people.

It's striking that most passages in the NT that discuss clothing do not tell us what kind of clothing to put on. They tell us inside-of-the-cup things:

Matthew 6:

“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Romans 13

And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

Galatians 3:

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3 (and note what it implies about culture):

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

1 Peter 5:

In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,

“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”

Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

[Bootstrap]

And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

This sort of thing seems quite similar to what's being termed "focusing on the outside of the cup." Jesus here is instructing the rich young ruler to go sell and give, not because of the moral rightness or wrongness of that action specifically, but because of what that action would do for the man's heart. Why didn't Jesus just tell this young man to focus on repentance, love, mercy, and peace - trusting that if the man would get there on the inside it would affect the outside of his life?

I think the New Testament treats this kind of good deed as an "inside the cup" thing.

Even then, we should not do these things in order to be seen by men:

“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

[ken_sylvania]

And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

This sort of thing seems quite similar to what's being termed "focusing on the outside of the cup." Jesus here is instructing the rich young ruler to go sell and give, not because of the moral rightness or wrongness of that action specifically, but because of what that action would do for the man's heart. Why didn't Jesus just tell this young man to focus on repentance, love, mercy, and peace - trusting that if the man would get there on the inside it would affect the outside of his life?

I think the New Testament treats this kind of good deed as an "inside the cup" thing.

Even then, we should not do these things in order to be seen by men:

“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Could you explain your understanding of what is "inside the cup" vs. "outside the cup"?

[Bootstrap]

Could you explain your understanding of what is "inside the cup" vs. "outside the cup"?

Appearances are the outside of the cup.

In Martin's book, I was struck by the desire to use culture to wipe out "self-expression", a term that does not occur in the Bible. Peter, Paul, and John sure expressed themselves quite differently from each other. I see no evidence that the Bible wants Christians to all dress the same way to wipe out self-expression.

Did you notice that two of the passages on "how to clothe yourself" refer to groups of people who dressed differently, then tell us to clothe ourselves with Christ, or with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience? That's the inside of the cup.

Galatians 3:

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3 (and note what it implies about culture):

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

I do think that people will see our good works and give thanks to the Father. But we don't do them in order to be seen. And it's not about building a distinctive shared culture focused on the externals of how we dress.

Matthew 5:

In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

[ken_sylvania]

Could you explain your understanding of what is "inside the cup" vs. "outside the cup"?

Appearances are the outside of the cup.

In Martin's book, I was struck by the desire to use culture to wipe out "self-expression", a term that does not occur in the Bible. Peter, Paul, and John sure expressed themselves quite differently from each other. I see no evidence that the Bible wants Christians to all dress the same way to wipe out self-expression.

Did you notice that two of the passages on "how to clothe yourself" refer to groups of people who dressed differently, then tell us to clothe ourselves with Christ, or with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience? That's the inside of the cup.

Galatians 3:

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3 (and note what it implies about culture):

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

I do think that people will see our good works and give thanks to the Father. But we don't do them in order to be seen. And it's not about building a distinctive shared culture focused on the externals of how we dress.

Matthew 5:

In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

So are you saying then that selling one's possessions and giving to the poor is not something that others can observe? Are you saying that compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience don't appear?

[Bootstrap]

I do think that people will see our good works and give thanks to the Father. But we don't do them in order to be seen. And it's not about building a distinctive shared culture focused on the externals of how we dress.

Matthew 5:

In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

So are you saying then that selling one's possessions and giving to the poor is not something that others can observe? Are you saying that compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience don't appear?

I don't understand your question. See the part I quoted from my last message - the same Sermon on the Mount that warns us against focusing on externals of religion commands us to do the kinds of good deeds that are a light that shines before others.

Those good deeds will be seen. That's not what Jesus meant by the outside of the cup.

We are called to clothe ourselves in compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. And yes, people will see that. We are not called to dress as Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free. That kind of clothing is more obviously visible.

[ken_sylvania]

I do think that people will see our good works and give thanks to the Father. But we don't do them in order to be seen. And it's not about building a distinctive shared culture focused on the externals of how we dress.

Matthew 5:

So are you saying then that selling one's possessions and giving to the poor is not something that others can observe? Are you saying that compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience don't appear?

I don't understand your question. See the part I quoted from my last message - the same Sermon on the Mount that warns us against focusing on externals of religion commands us to do the kinds of good deeds that are a light that shines before others.

Those good deeds will be seen. That's not what Jesus meant by the outside of the cup.

We are called to clothe ourselves in compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. And yes, people will see that. We are not called to dress as Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free. That kind of clothing is more obviously visible.

You said, regarding the young man selling his possessions -

I think the New Testament treats this kind of good deed as an "inside the cup" thing.
Even then, we should not do these things in order to be seen by men:

“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

If selling one's possessions and giving to the poor is an "inside the cup" thing, then Jesus' admonition not to give alms in order to be seen of men is talking about an "inside the cup" thing, not an "outside the cup" thing.

I would say the motive for giving is what is "inside the cup", and the actual giving is "outside the cup." And in the case of the rich young ruler, Jesus told him to do some external actions because those actions were going to help him understand what was inside.

[Neto]

I was off-line for 4 days, plus a bit of the 5th, so I haven't read the thread that this one is a spin off from. So I haven't read the book or article that appears to have spawned this particular discussion. So I'll just say that when Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees, he wasn't saying that they were doing the wrong thing. Rather, he was confronting them because they were doing the right things in a showy way, and for the wrong reasons. So in that conversation where he talked about the 'inside and the outside of the cup' he was telling them that they should do those things, but for the right reason, and with the right attitude.

Then there were other things that they were doing that were never commanded for them to do, or they had elevated them to positions of importance above the "more weighty matters". (For instance, using the teaching about making special additional gifts to God as a way to avoid caring for parents in their old age. The deal about declaring those funds to be 'corban' - dedicated to God.)

Other customs they were following were things they had invented entirely on their own. I will go ahead & shoot myself in the foot here, and say that straight cut suits fall in that category. I am NOT saying that it's WRONG to do that, but I do think it's wrong to make it a 'religious practice' that is used to label or categorize other people.

Living in submission to the group is also fine, as long as the group is doing the right things for the right reasons. But we MUST have personal convictions about the "weightier matters". I know an Amish minister - have known him for some 15 years, well before he became a minister - and I agree with him in many areas. But in an article he wrote in recent months he talks about personal convictions, but in the article at least, it stops for him at the point of personal conviction to follow the guidelines of the congregation. Those guidelines - I don't care how many you make - they just do not cover everything. I have been there where we agreed to follow some rules about things we do not have personal convictions. In those areas, it came back to the fact that we would abide by what we had promised, because of the convictions that others in the group had, and simply because we made that promise.

There were also things I have "convictions" about that they had no rules for, and I was OK with just not doing those things on my own, without any support from the congregation. (For instance, I still hold to total avoidance of all card games. That's how I was taught in the MB church - mostly by my parents, and while I see it as a 'gray area' as far as my attitude toward others, I have no desire to do it myself. There have been some other things that I spoke with our lead pastor about, things which I knew from my much wider exposure to the larger culture that they carried cultural significance that would not be compatible with a Christ-centered life. Example: shaved heads and goatees. It is no longer like that, but at that time this style was closely associated with white supremacy. Anyone should be willing to give up a style choice in order to avoid an unwanted impression. It was added to our congregational guidelines for a period of years, but it is no longer included - it doesn't need to be. Would I want to do that? Definitely not, but I also have no problem with others doing it. Straight cuts, avoiding buttons on coats and mustaches are these sorts of things - it was good to avoid it during the time they carried an unwanted societal meaning, but that is long gone now.)

[Ernie]

I am NOT saying that it's WRONG to do that, but I do think it's wrong to make it a 'religious practice' that is used to label or categorize other people.

People and groups who make straight cut coats a religious practice, do so for self-identification, and it is a voluntary thing as to whether one wants to be a part of such a group.

I don't know of anyone or any group that makes a religious practice for the purpose of labeling or categorizing others. Why would a group make religious practices for others?
If they did, I think that would be WRONG as well.

However, I don't have any problem with a religious group agreeing to wear something to identify themselves, as long as they don't look down on others and don't refuse communion and the right hand of fellowship to folks who don't wear the same identity. If somebody or some group thinks wearing a rubber band around their wrist or wooden shoes will help remind them to be the people God wants them to be, more power to them! I don't think the ribbon-of-blue principle is forbidden in the New Testament.

[Neto]

I am NOT saying that it's WRONG to do that, but I do think it's wrong to make it a 'religious practice' that is used to label or categorize other people.

People and groups who make straight cut coats a religious practice, do so for self-identification, and it is a voluntary thing as to whether one wants to be a part of such a group.

I don't know of anyone or any group that makes a religious practice for the purpose of labeling or categorizing others. Why would a group make religious practices for others?
If they did, I think that would be WRONG as well.

However, I don't have any problem with a religious group agreeing to wear something to identify themselves, as long as they don't look down on others and don't refuse communion and the right hand of fellowship to folks who don't wear the same identity. If somebody or some group thinks wearing a rubber band around their wrist or wooden shoes will help remind them to be the people God wants them to be, more power to them! I don't think the ribbon-of-blue principle is forbidden in the New Testament.

Perhaps I did not word that very clearly. I meant "use ones own group's religious practices to label or categorize other people as excluded from one's own group in the spiritual sense." But you DID add "as long as they don't look down on others and don't refuse communion and the right hand of fellowship to folks who don't wear the same identity". That is exactly what I have seen, and what I am talking about - withholding group fellowship with those who do not comply with the in-group standards of dress. I have quite a few friends who fellowship with me on a one-to-one basis, but I would never expect to be invited into fellowship in the context of a church meeting. (Communion is a different matter, in my opinion, and I don't blame anyone for not making an open invitation to participate.) I do, however, appreciate the 'private' fellowship.

I don't mind at all that others choose to use externals to create a group cultural identity. But I'm not impressed when it is used as a sort of 'symbol of acceptability' in the religious sense, creating a feeling of religious 'in-group' and 'out-group'. Just to clarify, they have every right to do that culturally - I am just not favorably impressed with the level of their openness to other members of the Body of Christ, and I do not think there is any Scriptural support for that sort of thing. (It's more than a little like Peter avoiding sitting down to a meal with non-Jewish Christians - the thing Paul called him out for.)