Outcomes of Overturning Roe Vs. Wade

[Soloist]

My wife's first two pregnancies ended in miscarriages.

That mattered to you and her didn’t it? Regardless of where we are in this argument… it’s hard with loss.

We’ve lost one due to miscarriage and one to a truck. Both we valued as our children but I can’t say I miss our child that was never born the way I miss my first born.

[temporal1]

My wife's first two pregnancies ended in miscarriages.

science is finding, mothers may have ongoing “footprints” on a molecular level with each conception.
God created them, He knows each one. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3921195/

learning about this some years ago changed how i think of our miscarriages. and eternity.
and, “when life begins.”

5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

6“Ah, Lord GOD,” I said, “I surely do not know how to speak, for I am only a child!”

7But the LORD told me: “Do not say, ‘I am only a child.’
For to everyone I send you, you must go, and all that I command you, you must speak.…
https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/1-6.htm

God uses all.
Those involved in exterminating His creation have reason to fear. God’s creations will not return to Him void. Isaiah 55:11
i thought our miscarriages were “gone.” In God’s hands. Now i know they are in God’s hands, and He’s using them in our lives.

Science is always running behind God. It will never eclipse God. Not possible.

[Ken]

My wife's first two pregnancies ended in miscarriages.

That mattered to you and her didn’t it? Regardless of where we are in this argument… it’s hard with loss.

We’ve lost one due to miscarriage and one to a truck. Both we valued as our children but I can’t say I miss our child that was never born the way I miss my first born.

Of course it was difficult. The first happened when we were overseas. There was a lot of pain and a lot of blood and it was a very long night. But do I think God murdered our children and that we will see them again in heaven? Or that my wife murdered our children through some act of her own? No. Do I ever think about it 20 years later except when the topic comes up like here? No.

I personally oppose abortion and would not want one for my wife unless it was medically necessary. But I also don't think it is appropriate to wield the enormous coercive and punitive power of the state to impose one particular point of view here. I also think that a real culture of life is not one in which a government imprisons women for things that happen before birth, and then completely neglects the struggles of young mothers afterwards.

[RZehr]

Interestingly this is an area where I strongly disagree with Trump, but Trump and Ken find themselves in agreement.

I'm not sure how anyone can agree with Trump. He is constantly flip-flopping and doesn't appear to have any coherent position. He just flip-flopped back to supporting Florida's 6-week ban after getting pushback from evangelical supporters. He doesn't appear to have any core beliefs. Everything is transactional and for sale, whatever gets him the most votes.

So Trump is very much like middle America. Not grounded in any fundamental truth, allowing external pressure guide his moral compass, ultimately looking only to the law as an arbiter of right and wrong. And when the law changes, the line between right and wrong change too.
Trump is merely quicker to adopt the changes, although not terribly much quicker, really.

I view the general middle, center-left, or center-right American as having no core beliefs either. Consider what the left and right stood for 25 years ago, and look at them today. They drift like a feather in a foolish wind.
The only ones with any somewhat enduring principles seem to be on the extreme right and extreme left. And even there, I find unexceptionable levels of pragmatic compromise. (Not that I support their positions, I just find even there to be a foundation-less aspect.)

[Ken]

Interestingly this is an area where I strongly disagree with Trump, but Trump and Ken find themselves in agreement.

I'm not sure how anyone can agree with Trump. He is constantly flip-flopping and doesn't appear to have any coherent position. He just flip-flopped back to supporting Florida's 6-week ban after getting pushback from evangelical supporters. He doesn't appear to have any core beliefs. Everything is transactional and for sale, whatever gets him the most votes.

So Trump is very much like middle America. Not grounded in any fundamental truth, allowing external pressure guide his moral compass, ultimately looking only to the law as an arbiter of right and wrong. And when the law changes, the line between right and wrong change too.
Trump is merely quicker to adopt the changes, although not terribly much quicker, really.

Don't conflate individuals with populations.

I think most people actually do know what they believe. However when it comes to a subject like abortion there isn't consensus at the population level and so it becomes a political dispute.

Most political disputes are actually like that.

Most people aren't running for office and so aren't trying to triangulate some ideal position that will gain them the most votes like Trump appears to be. They just believe what they believe and then get on with their lives.

[Soloist]

Of course it was difficult. The first happened when we were overseas. There was a lot of pain and a lot of blood and it was a very long night. But do I think God murdered our children and that we will see them again in heaven? Or that my wife murdered our children through some act of her own? No. Do I ever think about it 20 years later except when the topic comes up like here? No.

You don’t think you will meet your two children in heaven?

[RZehr]

I'm not sure how anyone can agree with Trump. He is constantly flip-flopping and doesn't appear to have any coherent position. He just flip-flopped back to supporting Florida's 6-week ban after getting pushback from evangelical supporters. He doesn't appear to have any core beliefs. Everything is transactional and for sale, whatever gets him the most votes.

So Trump is very much like middle America. Not grounded in any fundamental truth, allowing external pressure guide his moral compass, ultimately looking only to the law as an arbiter of right and wrong. And when the law changes, the line between right and wrong change too.
Trump is merely quicker to adopt the changes, although not terribly much quicker, really.

Don't conflate individuals with populations.

I think most people actually do know what they believe. However when it comes to a subject like abortion there isn't consensus at the population level and so it becomes a political dispute.

Most political disputes are actually like that.

Most people aren't running for office and so aren't trying to triangulate some ideal position that will gain them the most votes like Trump appears to be. They just believe what they believe and then get on with their lives.

Individuals change. They don’t actually know what they believe due to learning. They are easily changed over time. The average persons life is not a well considered life at all. They are by and large, subject to what their friends and hero’s believe and say.

For example, they are anti-gay until their child is gay. Then they shift, because they aren’t grounded in truth, but in mere inertial.
Or their workplace erodes their beliefs little by little, and they are forced into these small mental compromises, until they realize a few years later that they have changed. But they never know exactly when or where the change happened.

[Ken]

So Trump is very much like middle America. Not grounded in any fundamental truth, allowing external pressure guide his moral compass, ultimately looking only to the law as an arbiter of right and wrong. And when the law changes, the line between right and wrong change too.
Trump is merely quicker to adopt the changes, although not terribly much quicker, really.

Don't conflate individuals with populations.

I think most people actually do know what they believe. However when it comes to a subject like abortion there isn't consensus at the population level and so it becomes a political dispute.

Most political disputes are actually like that.

Most people aren't running for office and so aren't trying to triangulate some ideal position that will gain them the most votes like Trump appears to be. They just believe what they believe and then get on with their lives.

Individuals change. They don’t actually know what they believe due to learning. They are easily changed over time. The average persons life is not a well considered life at all. They are by and large, subject to what their friends and hero’s believe and say.

For example, they are anti-gay until their child is gay. Then they shift, because they aren’t grounded in truth, but in mere inertial.
Or their workplace erodes their beliefs little by little, and they are forced into these small mental compromises, until they realize a few years later that they have changed. But they never know exactly when or where the change happened.

That is true to some extent. But most people don't need to have a gay child to figure out where they stand. But of course people do learn and change their views and values. The entire premise of Christian evangelism is based on the notion that people can be persuaded and change. I have no objection to people advocating for their particular views and trying to persuade others. Whether it is veganism or Mormonism or plain Anabaptism. That it was it means to live in a free society. I tend to be less open to the government using the coercive force of law to impose one belief over another. Whether it is banning beef or imposing government-mandated prayers in schools. To the extent that the government wants to weigh in on such issues I think that freedom is better preserved when the government uses incentives (carrots) rather than punishment (sticks).

[RZehr]

Don't conflate individuals with populations.

I think most people actually do know what they believe. However when it comes to a subject like abortion there isn't consensus at the population level and so it becomes a political dispute.

Most political disputes are actually like that.

Most people aren't running for office and so aren't trying to triangulate some ideal position that will gain them the most votes like Trump appears to be. They just believe what they believe and then get on with their lives.

Individuals change. They don’t actually know what they believe due to learning. They are easily changed over time. The average persons life is not a well considered life at all. They are by and large, subject to what their friends and hero’s believe and say.

For example, they are anti-gay until their child is gay. Then they shift, because they aren’t grounded in truth, but in mere inertial.
Or their workplace erodes their beliefs little by little, and they are forced into these small mental compromises, until they realize a few years later that they have changed. But they never know exactly when or where the change happened.

That is true to some extent. But most people don't need to have a gay child to figure out where they stand. But of course people do learn and change their views and values. The entire premise of Christian evangelism is based on the notion that people can be persuaded and change. I have no objection to people advocating for their particular views and trying to persuade others. Whether it is veganism or Mormonism or plain Anabaptism. That it was it means to live in a free society. I tend to be less open to the government using the coercive force of law to impose one belief over another. Whether it is banning beef or imposing government-mandated prayers in schools. To the extent that the government wants to weigh in on such issues I think that freedom is better preserved when the government uses incentives (carrots) rather than punishment (sticks).

And Trump is merely more speedy at making the same changes that center-right and center-left Americans are guilty of making. Which irritates them.
Trump seems to be adopting a position closer to what you adopted yourself longer ago, and yet you aren’t loving it.

Make no mistake, I think he is morally rudderless. I just think that the middle American is also. They are just pokier.

[temporal1]

.. The entire premise of Christian evangelism is based on the notion that people can be persuaded and change. ..

This is the purpose of schools of human law.
Authentic Christians understand, belief and change are gifts of the Holy Spirit, and pray for the gift/blessing, for themselves and others. Believers act, share Truth, knowing and trusting the Holy Spirit determines outcomes. Proverbs 16:9