How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Events occurring and how they relate/affect Anabaptist faith and culture.

Which one best describes your understanding?

Always felt Trump's position was transactional/finger in the wind/pandering.
13
76%
Suspected Trump's position might be transactional/finger in the wind/pandering.
3
18%
Now realizing that Trump's position is or might be transactional/finger in the wind/pandering.
0
No votes
Now realizing that Trump's position IS transactional/finger in the wind/pandering.
1
6%
Still believe Trump's position is mostly or wholly anti-abortion and the media is just mis-reporting things to make it look like he's a centrist turncoat.
0
No votes
Still believe Trump's position is mostly or wholly anti-abortion and that he is only now playing some kind of 3-D chess and will lead the pro-life political movement to even more victories.
0
No votes
Nothing can shake your conviction that Trump's position is wholly anti-abortion and he is the best figurehead for the movement.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 17

Ken
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Re: How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Post by Ken »

barnhart wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:50 amWe shall see, it's hard to make accurate predictions about the future. I think you are underselling the capacity of people to acclimate, same sex marriage was the subject of similar fervor until it no longer held the capacity to command votes, then the world of political agitation moved on to others issues rather quickly.

If the anti- abortion movement survives, I predict it will revert back to the Catholics where it started because there it is rooted in more comprehensive anthropology of the purpose and meaning of humanity. Individual Rights are a sharp political weapon but it cuts both ways because it's ontology is rootless, it can be employed by all sides of any issue.

Historically, Protestants had to be guided into the anti- abortion movement as a path to fight feminism. Phyllis Schlafly was a key player because she was building a coalition to oppose the ERA and needed a wedge issue to unite Protestants and Catholics. Before that, Protestants looked at abortion through the lense of Privacy and Rights of the mother. The largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptists, made that switch in the late 70's. Before that they were more entrenched in Individualism and tended to view things like Equality for women before the law as good things.

Back to the subject of this thread, I think the rootlessness of the anti-abortion movement has made it vulnerable to political demagogues who lack a robust anthropology of human purpose and ride anti- abortion as a wedge issue until it is depleted, then abandon it. There were candidates available with well rounded, consistent pro- life resumes backed up by lifestyle and philosophy, but they were consistently rejected.
The "rootlessness" of the anti-abortion movement?

So abortion isn't the existential moral issue that we were all led to believe from tens of thousands of church pulpits across the land? Everyone except Catholics is just going to move on to the next shiny thing? That people who oppose abortion on moral or religious ground are just going to say that it is fine that half the country is doubling down on abortion rights because that's just "states rights" or something?

I have my doubts.
HondurasKeiser wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 10:02 am
This just happens to dove-tail with something I was reading this morning by the inestimable David Bentley Hart:
We live in an age whose chief moral value has been determined, by overwhelming consensus, to be the absolute liberty of personal volition, the power of each of us to choose what he or she believes, wants, needs, or must possess; our culturally most persuasive models of human freedom are unambiguously voluntarist and, in a rather debased and degraded way, Promethean; the will, we believe, is sovereign because unpremised, free because spontaneous, and this is the highest good. And a society that believes this must, at least implicitly, embrace and subtly advocate a very particular moral metaphysics: the unreality of any “value” higher than choice, or of any transcendent Good ordering desire towards a higher end. Desire is free to propose, seize, accept or reject, want or not want—but not to obey. Society must thus be secured against the intrusions of the Good, or of God, so that its citizens may determine their own lives by the choices they make from a universe of morally indifferent but variably desirable ends, unencumbered by any prior grammar of obligation or value (in America, we call this the “wall of separation”). Hence the liberties that permit one to purchase lavender bed clothes, to gaze fervently at pornography, to become a Unitarian, to market popular celebrations of brutal violence, or to destroy one’s unborn child are all equally intrinsically “good” because all are expressions of an inalienable freedom of choice. But, of course, if the will determines itself only in and through such choices, free from any prevenient natural order, then it too is in itself nothing. And so, at the end of modernity, each of us who is true to the times stands facing not God, or the gods, or the Good beyond beings, but an abyss, over which presides the empty, inviolable authority of the individual will, whose impulses and decisions are their own moral index.
I think he has it exactly backwards. And he is conflating government and morality. One thing that Anabaptists understand is that morality does not derive from government. It never has and never will. Government is simply about the exercise of power. The fundamental construct of American democracy is that people have inherent freedoms (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, etc.) and that the government is by definition limited in its ability to infringe on those inherent freedoms by the Constitution. The 1st Amendment, the 2nd Amendment, the 5th Amendment, the 14th Amendment, and so forth.
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Josh

Re: How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Post by Josh »

The fundamental construct of America is not that people are free to deliberately murder unborn babies nor to have gay marriages.

Gay marriage wasn’t allowed to nearly all of America’s history. Nor was abortion.
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Josh

Re: How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 11:15 am [quote=barnhart post_id=243900 time=1724932226
So abortion isn't the existential moral issue that we were all led to believe from tens of thousands of church pulpits across the land? Everyone except Catholics is just going to move on to the next shiny thing? That people who oppose abortion on moral or religious ground are just going to say that it is fine that half the country is doubling down on abortion rights because that's just "states rights" or something?

I have my doubts.
Abortion is nearly identical to slavery, except abortion wasn’t enshrined in America’s founding. I don’t think civil war is a good idea and wouldn’t support a civil war to end abortion, just as I don’t think the last civil war was good either.

However, rampant murder of tiny babies is… a bit of a problem. Particularly when 53% of the population forces it on the other 47%, much as the South did for a century with slavery.
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Ken
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Re: How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 11:27 am The fundamental construct of America is not that people are free to deliberately murder unborn babies nor to have gay marriages.

Gay marriage wasn’t allowed to nearly all of America’s history. Nor was abortion.
I did not say that government should not exist or serves no purpose. I said we have a government whose authority over individuals is by definition limited to specific purposes. If you believe that abortion is murder then regulation of abortion would be a legitimate purpose. The argument for prohibiting gay marriage is a whole lot weaker as the Supreme Court found.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 2:58 pm
Josh wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 11:27 am The fundamental construct of America is not that people are free to deliberately murder unborn babies nor to have gay marriages.

Gay marriage wasn’t allowed to nearly all of America’s history. Nor was abortion.
I did not say that government should not exist or serves no purpose. I said we have a government whose authority over individuals is by definition limited to specific purposes. If you believe that abortion is murder then regulation of abortion would be a legitimate purpose. The argument for prohibiting gay marriage is a whole lot weaker as the Supreme Court found.
There are two separate areas of concern. The first is if the state can make things like fornication and sodomy illegal, which the state did for most of America's history. Eventually, this 200 year history was reversed and various Supreme Court decisions made fornication, adultery, sodomy and so on legal, including removing a cause for civil action against someone who commits adultery. I would consider this the start of lawlessness.

Flowing from there was state recognition of marriages, which has been something states have been doing for a very long time, because the unit of the family concerns the interests of the state. No state in America recognised same sex marriage at its founding nor did any do so for 200 years, and the very idea would have been held absurd. Yet here we are.
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Ken
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Re: How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 3:29 pm
Ken wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 2:58 pm
Josh wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 11:27 am The fundamental construct of America is not that people are free to deliberately murder unborn babies nor to have gay marriages.

Gay marriage wasn’t allowed to nearly all of America’s history. Nor was abortion.
I did not say that government should not exist or serves no purpose. I said we have a government whose authority over individuals is by definition limited to specific purposes. If you believe that abortion is murder then regulation of abortion would be a legitimate purpose. The argument for prohibiting gay marriage is a whole lot weaker as the Supreme Court found.
There are two separate areas of concern. The first is if the state can make things like fornication and sodomy illegal, which the state did for most of America's history. Eventually, this 200 year history was reversed and various Supreme Court decisions made fornication, adultery, sodomy and so on legal, including removing a cause for civil action against someone who commits adultery. I would consider this the start of lawlessness.

Flowing from there was state recognition of marriages, which has been something states have been doing for a very long time, because the unit of the family concerns the interests of the state. No state in America recognised same sex marriage at its founding nor did any do so for 200 years, and the very idea would have been held absurd. Yet here we are.
Yes here we are. Astonishingly my marriage hasn't been threatened or affected in the slightest. And neither has anyone else's that I know. Despite all the frantic hyperbole about how allowing gays to get married would destroy the institution of marriage. Curious how that is.

Anabaptists used to understand that morality does not come from the government and its earthly laws. To the contrary.

That is something that David Bentley Hart seems to not understand either.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Post by Josh »

Yes here we are. Astonishingly my marriage hasn't been threatened or affected in the slightest. And neither has anyone else's that I know. Despite all the frantic hyperbole about how allowing gays to get married would destroy the institution of marriage. Curious how that is.
What does any of that have to do with what I said?

I don't think the government should allow people to marry horses, mules, or donkeys, either, but if they did, it wouldn't "threaten my marriage" or affect it. But that doesn't mean the government should start allowing polygamy, marrying animals, young children, and so forth.
Anabaptists used to understand that morality does not come from the government and its earthly laws. To the contrary.
Do you think that slavery should be legal, then?
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Neto

Re: How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Post by Neto »

I have no idea of how deeply Trump (or any other politician, whether "fer it or agin' it") holds any conviction on this, or any other moral issue. But I would say that Trump's more recent comments on this issue are of a "pragmatic" nature. (That is, he is aware of what is a "reasonably achievable goal", and is willing to "sacrifice" the real goal - to stop all infanticide - to be able to have any expectation of reaching the reduced goal he sets out.) He has always said "You ask for more than you expect to get." So I suspect that his expectations are actually a bit lower than his stated platform. That is politics. God doesn't work that way. Generally speaking, no one can negotiate with God, although Abraham had a run at it.

So to sum up, "It's politics."
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Ken
Posts: 17975
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 3:46 pm
Yes here we are. Astonishingly my marriage hasn't been threatened or affected in the slightest. And neither has anyone else's that I know. Despite all the frantic hyperbole about how allowing gays to get married would destroy the institution of marriage. Curious how that is.
What does any of that have to do with what I said?

I don't think the government should allow people to marry horses, mules, or donkeys, either, but if they did, it wouldn't "threaten my marriage" or affect it. But that doesn't mean the government should start allowing polygamy, marrying animals, young children, and so forth.
Anabaptists used to understand that morality does not come from the government and its earthly laws. To the contrary.
Do you think that slavery should be legal, then?
In contrast to gay marriage, the institution of slavery directly infringes on the freedom of others. So no.

Marriage is a legal contract. If horses, mules, or donkeys become intelligent enough and self-aware enough to freely enter into legal contracts such as get a credit card, sign a mortgage, etc., then we could have that discussion. We are not there.
Last edited by Ken on Thu Aug 29, 2024 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
mike

Re: How do you or did perceive candidate Trump's position on abortion

Post by mike »

Just to demonstrate how Trump's views on abortion are to the liberal of most conservatives:



In terms of abortion policy, the left should actually like Trump better than other Republicans. He is just not that conservative on the abortion issue. That, or he has a much greater willingness to compromise on principle for political purposes, or both.
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