Excommunication / Shunning / The Ban

[temporal1]

^^Interesting, Neto, i expect there are countless versions of this, all over the world, continuing in varying forms today.

Did the Banawa have some form of this before scriptures were introduced? And, after?

[mrbilliam]

The "By Their Words" thread brought up some interesting discussion about excommunication. I didn't want to further derail that thread, but I do want to continue the discussion.

As Josh said, there are only two Mennonite groups that excommunicate anyone who leaves their denomination. That definitely feels extreme, and the doctrine of OTC / Apostolic succession is obviously a completely indefensible position for anyone who is intellectually honest in either of those churches, but that doesn't mean the practice is wrong, or not working.

I don't want to get into a Biblical fundamentalism debate, because I'm not a fundamentalist, and I think there's a reason why the bible doesn't explain excommunication in exacting detail.

With that said, the evangelical standard of letting people leave a church for any reason, EXCEPT for a few hot button issues (gay marriage is basically the only problematic thing left in mainstream christianity) isn't turning out super well.

Our church and the Beachy-Amish church up the road do not under any circumstances practice the ban for members who leave for another church, and I think this creates a very specific problems that I will describe.

The older generation in our church had stable marriages, lived a relatively plain, separate lifestyle as they raised their families, and managed to get their kids married off or at least out of the house without contracting the societal diseases that the rest of mainstream christianity suffered from (divorce, promiscuity, excessive influence from TV / Movies etc). Coming from an Amish background, they reacted strongly against banning anyone who left, even if it was for obviously ungodly reasons.

This created a comfortable drift.

The next generation started marrying, initially each married couple chooses to attend the least conservative church between the two of theirs. The more conservative parents are disappointed, but the strong families remain a source of stability for the younger couples, even as they attend churches that provides none of that stability.

As more young people go through this transition, it becomes increasingly attractive, and less conservative church becomes the de factor church of choice for the younger generation. As the older people scratch their heads about why everyone is leaving, they continue to fellowship with and support their children, even as they drift towards a more and more worldly existence.

The younger generation is COMPLETELY blind to what is happening. They believe they've found a special "freedom in Christ" or "grace", and that they're parent's church is really kind of legalistic, and you know, "a lot of people at that church believe their saved because of their clothes", even though they can't name a single person who actually believes that.

This goes on for a generation, and everything looks fine from the inside. The less conservative church thinks they're special, because they're not having any of the problems other mainstream churches have, ignoring the fact that the previous generation is really sustaining them spiritually. The problems begin when that generation is gone, and all h*** breaks loose, literally.

Coming from the other side of this as a seeker, it's plain as day what is going on, and I can see all these young families heading for the nightmare of their children having no use for Christianity as a whole, and the parents being so confused, not understanding that they trashed every tradition that connected them to their faith, and passed nothing down to their kids except for a vague intellectual state that means your saved, but affects nothing in your life.

I watched this exact thing happen with the homeschool movement, and I'm devastated to see that the CMs are experiencing the exact same trajectory, with the same level of confusion.

With all that said, I see no solution to this drift without the CMs coming back to some kind of ban or disfellowship when members leave the church for no reason but to be more worldly. It's hard for me to even say that, because it feels "wrong", and it's daunting to even consider what it would take to quantify in a church rulebook what it means to leave for a "more worldly" church, but I simply see no alternative.

Sorry for the book, hopefully you can find the time to read it, and discuss.

I see the exact same thing happening with our married children. Two generations is all it took to go from a grandfather who was a charter member of a group that was part of the beginning of the Conservative movement in which the use of the TV was rejected, to grandchildren who have transitioned two steps more liberal, but still "Mennonite", who once again embrace the TV.
They believe they have "liberty", I believe they misunderstand Christian liberty and are mistaking license for liberty.

This is why we need to teach convictions, not rules. When somebody has a faith filled conviction they don't need rule sets from men.

How about "I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes". There's the rule.

If it takes a bunch of Yoder eyeballs to watch over a brother's shoulder that he's following the rules, then there is no convictions. It is then law based. Can the law work to look "good and moral"? Absolutely.

I'd much rather be with brothers wanting to actively reject evil than strong arm them with "brotherhood rules and discipline". They are grown adults. Either they are passionate about Jesus or not.

[Josh]

This is why we need to teach convictions, not rules. When somebody has a faith filled conviction they don't need rule sets from men.

How about "I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes". There's the rule.

If it takes a bunch of Yoder eyeballs to watch over a brother's shoulder that he's following the rules, then there is no convictions. It is then law based. Can the law work to look "good and moral"? Absolutely.

I'd much rather be with brothers wanting to actively reject evil than strong arm them with "brotherhood rules and discipline". They are grown adults. Either they are passionate about Jesus or not.

Feel free to point out to us the churches that have "convictions" instead of "rules".

My own church doesn't have a written rulebook. We just know some things are wrong and don't do them. When there starts to be a lot of apostasy in a particular area, sometimes a letter will come out sent to all the churches as an admonishment. Most of these things remain at a congregation level though and are discussed by the brethren or the leaders tell us they see a weakness in an area.

mrbilliam, with respect, a lot of what you describe of "Anabaptism" seems to either be a caricature, or perhaps a very trouble church with a great deal of problems. Such churches do exist but they aren't the norm. If you are going to continue to be interested in Anabaptism, I recommend you look into healthy churches. I would be glad to point you to some in my own denomination and I'm sure others here would be glad to share you congregations they are familiar with.

[MichaelPA]

The "By Their Words" thread brought up some interesting discussion about excommunication. I didn't want to further derail that thread, but I do want to continue the discussion.

As Josh said, there are only two Mennonite groups that excommunicate anyone who leaves their denomination. That definitely feels extreme, and the doctrine of OTC / Apostolic succession is obviously a completely indefensible position for anyone who is intellectually honest in either of those churches, but that doesn't mean the practice is wrong, or not working.

I don't want to get into a Biblical fundamentalism debate, because I'm not a fundamentalist, and I think there's a reason why the bible doesn't explain excommunication in exacting detail.

With that said, the evangelical standard of letting people leave a church for any reason, EXCEPT for a few hot button issues (gay marriage is basically the only problematic thing left in mainstream christianity) isn't turning out super well.

Our church and the Beachy-Amish church up the road do not under any circumstances practice the ban for members who leave for another church, and I think this creates a very specific problems that I will describe.

The older generation in our church had stable marriages, lived a relatively plain, separate lifestyle as they raised their families, and managed to get their kids married off or at least out of the house without contracting the societal diseases that the rest of mainstream christianity suffered from (divorce, promiscuity, excessive influence from TV / Movies etc). Coming from an Amish background, they reacted strongly against banning anyone who left, even if it was for obviously ungodly reasons.

This created a comfortable drift.

The next generation started marrying, initially each married couple chooses to attend the least conservative church between the two of theirs. The more conservative parents are disappointed, but the strong families remain a source of stability for the younger couples, even as they attend churches that provides none of that stability.

As more young people go through this transition, it becomes increasingly attractive, and less conservative church becomes the de factor church of choice for the younger generation. As the older people scratch their heads about why everyone is leaving, they continue to fellowship with and support their children, even as they drift towards a more and more worldly existence.

The younger generation is COMPLETELY blind to what is happening. They believe they've found a special "freedom in Christ" or "grace", and that they're parent's church is really kind of legalistic, and you know, "a lot of people at that church believe their saved because of their clothes", even though they can't name a single person who actually believes that.

This goes on for a generation, and everything looks fine from the inside. The less conservative church thinks they're special, because they're not having any of the problems other mainstream churches have, ignoring the fact that the previous generation is really sustaining them spiritually. The problems begin when that generation is gone, and all h*** breaks loose, literally.

Coming from the other side of this as a seeker, it's plain as day what is going on, and I can see all these young families heading for the nightmare of their children having no use for Christianity as a whole, and the parents being so confused, not understanding that they trashed every tradition that connected them to their faith, and passed nothing down to their kids except for a vague intellectual state that means your saved, but affects nothing in your life.

I watched this exact thing happen with the homeschool movement, and I'm devastated to see that the CMs are experiencing the exact same trajectory, with the same level of confusion.

With all that said, I see no solution to this drift without the CMs coming back to some kind of ban or disfellowship when members leave the church for no reason but to be more worldly. It's hard for me to even say that, because it feels "wrong", and it's daunting to even consider what it would take to quantify in a church rulebook what it means to leave for a "more worldly" church, but I simply see no alternative.

Sorry for the book, hopefully you can find the time to read it, and discuss.

Who are the two Mennonite groups that Josh said excommunicate anyone who leaves their denomination?

[Josh]

Who are the two Mennonite groups that Josh said excommunicate anyone who leaves their denomination?

Groups that believe in one, true visible church would do this:

Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (commonly known as Holdemans), although we don't excommunicate for "leaving the denomination"; we would excommunicate someone when we recognise a spiritual death has already occurred, and one of the signs of a spiritual death is when someone abandons the "faith once delivered to the saints".

Reformed Mennonites

Swartzentruber Amish and related groups

Orthodox Mennonites (Ontario)

Other groups that don't claim to be OTVC but effectively are also would do this, as every person who leaves their denomination finds themselves excommunicated and under the "ban":

Apostolic Christian Faith church

Bruderhof

Some other groups effectively would do this although there isn't some strict rule about it, but in practical terms, virtually everyone leaving their church group would be perceived with a problem serious enough to warrant excommunication:

Apostolic Christian Church Nazarean

Other Nazarean groups such as Christian Nazarene Church ("Doraslavic"), including various sub-groups

Scottsville, KY-type churches (technically, they would excommunicate for departing for a church that allows driving cars)

As a general rule, any group that doesn't do this finds itself with a problem of people flowing "through" the church on their way to a less-strict one.

[MichaelPA]

Who are the two Mennonite groups that Josh said excommunicate anyone who leaves their denomination?

Groups that believe in one, true visible church would do this:

Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (commonly known as Holdemans), although we don't excommunicate for "leaving the denomination"; we would excommunicate someone when we recognise a spiritual death has already occurred, and one of the signs of a spiritual death is when someone abandons the "faith once delivered to the saints".

Reformed Mennonites

Swartzentruber Amish and related groups

Orthodox Mennonites (Ontario)

Other groups that don't claim to be OTVC but effectively are also would do this, as every person who leaves their denomination finds themselves excommunicated and under the "ban":

Apostolic Christian Faith church

Bruderhof

Some other groups effectively would do this although there isn't some strict rule about it, but in practical terms, virtually everyone leaving their church group would be perceived with a problem serious enough to warrant excommunication:

Apostolic Christian Church Nazarean

Other Nazarean groups such as Christian Nazarene Church ("Doraslavic"), including various sub-groups

Scottsville, KY-type churches (technically, they would excommunicate for departing for a church that allows driving cars)

As a general rule, any group that doesn't do this finds itself with a problem of people flowing "through" the church on their way to a less-strict one.

Ok, interesting. I was raised in the Stauffer Mennonite (Piker) church, and while they don't view themselves as the "one true church" anymore, they do excommunicate all who leave the denomination. The reason for this is they say the ones who leave are breaking a vow made before God, kind of like the Lancaster County Amish view it.

[MichaelPA]

Are there still Reformed Mennonite churches in America? Does anyone know?

[Josh]

Ok, interesting. I was raised in the Stauffer Mennonite (Piker) church, and while they don't view themselves as the "one true church" anymore, they do excommunicate all who leave the denomination. The reason for this is they say the ones who leave are breaking a vow made before God, kind of like the Lancaster County Amish view it.

I would add Stauffers to my list then. I wasn’t certain if they still did this. (My church views such baptismal vows in a similar way.)

Are there still Reformed Mennonite churches in America? Does anyone know?

As far as I know, yes, although the one on Ohio disbanded (and dismantled their meetinghouse, as is their custom) and the members moved elsewhere. They maintain a website oddly enough.

The 3 Johns - Herr, Stauffer, and Holdeman - were the chief proponents of reform amongst Mennonites in the 19th century. It is interesting to see the fruit of the movements. For example, Herr didn’t want attendance at other church’s funerals. Holdemans were fine with this.

The Scottsville-type group in Delano doesn’t want its members attending other churches’ funerals because Charity type preachers try to convince their members they aren’t born again unless they join a car driving church. They got so tired of being targeted like this they just don’t want their people going to funerals run by Charity type churches or other groups who are convinced everyone who uses horse and buggy somehow isn’t born again.

[MichaelPA]

Ok, interesting. I was raised in the Stauffer Mennonite (Piker) church, and while they don't view themselves as the "one true church" anymore, they do excommunicate all who leave the denomination. The reason for this is they say the ones who leave are breaking a vow made before God, kind of like the Lancaster County Amish view it.

I would add Stauffers to my list then. I wasn’t certain if they still did this. (My church views such baptismal vows in a similar way.)

Are there still Reformed Mennonite churches in America? Does anyone know?

As far as I know, yes, although the one on Ohio disbanded (and dismantled their meetinghouse, as is their custom) and the members moved elsewhere. They maintain a website oddly enough.

The 3 Johns - Herr, Stauffer, and Holdeman - were the chief proponents of reform amongst Mennonites in the 19th century. It is interesting to see the fruit of the movements. For example, Herr didn’t want attendance at other church’s funerals. Holdemans were fine with this.

The Scottsville-type group in Delano doesn’t want its members atys tending other churches’ funerals because Charity type preachers try to convince their members they aren’t born again unless they join a car driving church. They got so tired of being targeted like this they just don’t want their people going to funerals run by Charity type churches or other groups who are convinced everyone who uses horse and buggy somehow isn’t born again.

Pikers can go to other churches' funerals nowadays. Years ago they were advised not to, but it wasn't enforced very strictly.

It is my understanding that it is a church-wide policy for the Hoover Mennonites that they are not to attend other churches' funerals or services, however, it must be left a bit to the discretion of the members, because one of my Hoover Mennonite relatives attended a Piker church funeral one time.

[Josh]

Ok, interesting. I was raised in the Stauffer Mennonite (Piker) church, and while they don't view themselves as the "one true church" anymore, they do excommunicate all who leave the denomination. The reason for this is they say the ones who leave are breaking a vow made before God, kind of like the Lancaster County Amish view it.

I would add Stauffers to my list then. I wasn’t certain if they still did this. (My church views such baptismal vows in a similar way.)

Are there still Reformed Mennonite churches in America? Does anyone know?

As far as I know, yes, although the one on Ohio disbanded (and dismantled their meetinghouse, as is their custom) and the members moved elsewhere. They maintain a website oddly enough.

The 3 Johns - Herr, Stauffer, and Holdeman - were the chief proponents of reform amongst Mennonites in the 19th century. It is interesting to see the fruit of the movements. For example, Herr didn’t want attendance at other church’s funerals. Holdemans were fine with this.

The Scottsville-type group in Delano doesn’t want its members atys tending other churches’ funerals because Charity type preachers try to convince their members they aren’t born again unless they join a car driving church. They got so tired of being targeted like this they just don’t want their people going to funerals run by Charity type churches or other groups who are convinced everyone who uses horse and buggy somehow isn’t born again.

Pikers can go to other churches' funerals nowadays. Years ago they were advised not to, but it wasn't enforced very strictly.

It is my understanding that it is a church-wide policy for the Hoover Mennonites that they are not to attend other churches' funerals or services, however, it must be left a bit to the discretion of the members, because one of my Hoover Mennonite relatives attended a Piker church funeral one time.

As I understand it, Scottsville-type churches (and probably Hoovers too) wouldn’t see a problem with going to a church that is overall aligned with them in matters of faith and practice, such as the overall approach to salvation, not driving cars, and so forth. From what I hear, they are very comfortable fellowshipping with Swartzentrubers these days.