RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:32 pm
You can say that any “sword swinging” of the state is merely “hacking at branches” instead of “digging at the root”.
And God has ordained that some of these branches be pruned by the sword of the state.
I don’t see Mike A. complaining that incarcerating criminals is merely hacking at branches. Or laws against other murder is merely hacking at branches. Yes, I might agree that abortion, etc. is hacking at branches, but I find it perfectly within the ordination of the state to do so. I agree with Mike A. that we, as separate people, shouldn’t be involved in politics, or look to the state for deep answers.
But I find his criticism of abortion laws, based on unwanted children as the result, to be entire unwarranted from a Christian standpoint, and completely ignoring the fact that poor Christian families can get by with large families and no abortion, and no neglect. From a humanist standpoint, it does make sense.
Neglect is the problem. Go ahead and keep the focus on where it belongs.
Ernie's quote was accurate but lacked context.
I think Atnip is clear in his article that physical abortion is not preferable to "emotional abortion" and I don't think he is trying to suggest that the state shouldn't make laws against abortion. He's making the case that as followers of Jesus our goal should be changed hearts so that people want to do what's right, not forcing people to do "kind of" right against their will.
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:32 pm
You can say that any “sword swinging” of the state is merely “hacking at branches” instead of “digging at the root”.
And God has ordained that some of these branches be pruned by the sword of the state.
I don’t see Mike A. complaining that incarcerating criminals is merely hacking at branches. Or laws against other murder is merely hacking at branches. Yes, I might agree that abortion, etc. is hacking at branches, but I find it perfectly within the ordination of the state to do so. I agree with Mike A. that we, as separate people, shouldn’t be involved in politics, or look to the state for deep answers.
But I find his criticism of abortion laws, based on unwanted children as the result, to be entire unwarranted from a Christian standpoint, and completely ignoring the fact that poor Christian families can get by with large families and no abortion, and no neglect. From a humanist standpoint, it does make sense.
Neglect is the problem. Go ahead and keep the focus on where it belongs.
Ernie's quote was accurate but lacked context.
I think Atnip is clear in his article that physical abortion is not preferable to "emotional abortion" and I don't think he is trying to suggest that the state shouldn't make laws against abortion. He's making the case that as followers of Jesus our goal should be changed hearts so that people want to do what's right, not forcing people to do "kind of" right against their will.
Floridians will be voting over Amendment 4 in November, which would enshrine the right to an abortion in the state constitution. Per Politico, some conservative women are organizing to help support the ballot initiative.
Earlier this year, members of the Manatee County-based coalition and dozens of other organizations helped gather the more than 891,000 voter-signed petitions required for Amendment 4 to make the ballot. Carol Whitmore, a Republican and Manatee County commissioner, was among them. As she helped to hand out petitions, she noticed a number of Republican women voters had asked to sign them in support.
“There’s a lot of people who are just too afraid to speak up,” Whitmore said before Tuesday’s event, adding the meetings are designed to be a safe place for GOP women to talk openly about abortion. She first publicly announced her support for reproductive rights during a 2021 county commission meeting over a failed local abortion ban.
“Here you can speak freely and ask any questions that you want,” she said during the event. “We want you to know that this is about choice.”
Whitmore and fellow coalition members Ashley Brown and Jaymie Carter decided to hold events around Manatee and Sarasota counties, where conservative women could talk about abortion rights. Brown, who is also the president and CEO of the Bradenton-based nonprofit Women’s Resource Center, said while the issue has always been an emotional one for many women, politics has made just talking about abortion near impossible.
“They should be able to speak their mind without some sort of pulverizing response,” Brown said. “There were days when we could do that.”
The group isn’t the only one bucking the party. All over Florida, Republican women say they feel they need to get involved but want to do so quietly without having their names attached to the effort. Some are powerful within the GOP ranks but are still worried about the prospect of going public with their views, with one saying if it ever got out that she was involved in backing Amendment 4 then it would “ruin my life.”
The coalition of conservative supporters of reproductive rights leading Tuesday’s meeting is an offshoot of the Floridians Protecting Freedom Committee. The group had previously struggled to raise campaign cash due to concerns among out-of-state donors about Florida’s overwhelming number of Republican voters. But a victory on a similar measure supported by Ohio voters last November helped turn the tide with cash, followed by the campaign collecting enough voter signatures to make this year’s ballot ahead of the state’s February 1 deadline.
“I feel like the tides are turning,” Whitmore said. “I think we’ll be turning the tide without all of the scare tactics.”
Initiative member Jaymie Carter helped organize the first event in July, which also attracted more than 30 people. Before Tuesday’s meeting, Carter said several people had RSVP’d. The loss of three DeSantis-backed Sarasota school board candidates during the primary race earlier this month spurred more interest because it signaled to some that his influence in Florida might be waning.
“People want to say what they feel,” Carter said. “As we’ve always said as Republicans, less government interference.”
Szdfan wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 11:08 am
Floridians will be voting over Amendment 4 in November, which would enshrine the right to an abortion in the state constitution. Per Politico, some conservative women are organizing to help support the ballot initiative.
Very sad to see any woman (whether "conservative" or not) supporting making it legal to murder a baby mere seconds before it is born.
I hope all involved realise their spiritual need and repent before it is too late. We live on this earth but for a moment, but eternity will last forever. There will be no unrepentant murderers in heaven, but instead they will condemned on the final judgment who did not obey the gospel of peace and put away such killing and wickedness.
Szdfan wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 11:08 am
Floridians will be voting over Amendment 4 in November, which would enshrine the right to an abortion in the state constitution. Per Politico, some conservative women are organizing to help support the ballot initiative.
Very sad to see any woman (whether "conservative" or not) supporting making it legal to murder a baby mere seconds before it is born.
Amendment 4 would set the abortion limit to 24 weeks, which is not "seconds" before a baby is born.
Could you please provide any documented evidence that babies are being murdered "mere seconds" before they are born?
Szdfan wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 11:08 am
Floridians will be voting over Amendment 4 in November, which would enshrine the right to an abortion in the state constitution. Per Politico, some conservative women are organizing to help support the ballot initiative.
Very sad to see any woman (whether "conservative" or not) supporting making it legal to murder a baby mere seconds before it is born.
Amendment 4 would set the abortion limit to 24 weeks, which is not "seconds" before a baby is born.
Could you please provide any documented evidence that babies are being murdered "mere seconds" before they are born?
Except as provided in Article X, Section 22, no law shall prohibit, penalize, delay, or restrict abortion before viability or when necessary to protect the patient’s health, as determined by the patient’s healthcare provider.
"When necessary to protect the patient's health" includes basically any reason, including "mental health" of someone who simply doesn't want to have a baby but waits until the 3rd trimester. Abortion providers have already made it clear they will rubber-stamp requests of women who make such claims and find some kind of "health related" reason to do so.
Szdfan, don't pretend like the radical pro-abortion lobby isn't pushing for abortion-on-demand with no restrictions whatsoever. The better question, though, is what do you support? Do you think it is always wrong to murder a baby right before it's born? Or are there valid "exceptions"?
Very sad to see any woman (whether "conservative" or not) supporting making it legal to murder a baby mere seconds before it is born.
Amendment 4 would set the abortion limit to 24 weeks, which is not "seconds" before a baby is born.
Could you please provide any documented evidence that babies are being murdered "mere seconds" before they are born?
Except as provided in Article X, Section 22, no law shall prohibit, penalize, delay, or restrict abortion before viability or when necessary to protect the patient’s health, as determined by the patient’s healthcare provider.
"When necessary to protect the patient's health" includes basically any reason, including "mental health" of someone who simply doesn't want to have a baby but waits until the 3rd trimester. Abortion providers have already made it clear they will rubber-stamp requests of women who make such claims and find some kind of "health related" reason to do so.
Szdfan, don't pretend like the radical pro-abortion lobby isn't pushing for abortion-on-demand with no restrictions whatsoever. The better question, though, is what do you support? Do you think it is always wrong to murder a baby right before it's born? Or are there valid "exceptions"?
Prove it to me that people are murdering babies "mere seconds" before they are born, ye self-proclaimed arbitrator of truth.
Very sad to see any woman (whether "conservative" or not) supporting making it legal to murder a baby mere seconds before it is born.
Amendment 4 would set the abortion limit to 24 weeks, which is not "seconds" before a baby is born.
Could you please provide any documented evidence that babies are being murdered "mere seconds" before they are born?
Except as provided in Article X, Section 22, no law shall prohibit, penalize, delay, or restrict abortion before viability or when necessary to protect the patient’s health, as determined by the patient’s healthcare provider.
"When necessary to protect the patient's health" includes basically any reason, including "mental health" of someone who simply doesn't want to have a baby but waits until the 3rd trimester. Abortion providers have already made it clear they will rubber-stamp requests of women who make such claims and find some kind of "health related" reason to do so.
Szdfan, don't pretend like the radical pro-abortion lobby isn't pushing for abortion-on-demand with no restrictions whatsoever. The better question, though, is what do you support? Do you think it is always wrong to murder a baby right before it's born? Or are there valid "exceptions"?
Why are you so focused on the number of months? That is completely inconsistent with the belief that life begins at conception and that the death of any fertilized egg is murder whether it happens in a fertility clinic or obstetrics ward of a hospital? Are not all fetuses equal?
If abortion from a single cell embryo onwards is murder, why is the death of a fetus at 6 or 7 months any different from the death of a fertilized embryo? Should you not instead be focused on the deaths of fertilized embryos which is extremely common rather than the deaths of 7 month old fetuses which is extremely rare? The fact that the anti-abortion movement is so focused on months suggests they don't really believe their own rhetoric about life beginning at conception.
In any event, no one waits until the 3rd trimester to have discretionary abortions. Women in those circumstances don't want abortions. Any more than anyone ever wants any other invasive procedure such as an amputation or organ transplant if it isn't necessary. The law is simply saying that in the event of a pregnancy gone wrong and where it needs to be terminated for medical reasons, that decision should be made by medical professionals and not the courts or legal system.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
