Evangelism, Empathy, and Christian Nationalism...

[Josh]

Churches are allowed to be involved in political issues, like LGBTQ rights or abortion. Churches are not supposed to endorse or advocate for particular candidates, though the IRS doesn't really enforce that.

What do you think the government should be doing about lib politics in churches?

They should be applying the same cudgels they've applied to conservative politics in churches.

Examples?

For example, the conservative Bethel church in Redding CA has been ultra involved in both local and national politics for some time. What “cudgels” has the government applied to them?

All I asked for what is fairness. If groups loyal to a particular party are getting away with it then it's not a big deal if groups loyal to a different political party are getting away with it.

(As a matter of tax policy I don't care one whit about tax-deductible groups engaging in politicking. I do think Christians shouldn't be doing this, though, regardless of tax policy.)

[Ken]

They should be applying the same cudgels they've applied to conservative politics in churches.

Examples?

For example, the conservative Bethel church in Redding CA has been ultra involved in both local and national politics for some time. What “cudgels” has the government applied to them?

All I asked for what is fairness. If groups loyal to a particular party are getting away with it then it's not a big deal if groups loyal to a different political party are getting away with it.

(As a matter of tax policy I don't care one whit about tax-deductible groups engaging in politicking. I do think Christians shouldn't be doing this, though, regardless of tax policy.)

I was just curious if you had any actual examples.

Far as I recall, the last time the IRS took a really hard look at the tax status of religious institutions was way back in the 1970s when they pulled tax exempt status from religiously-sponsored segregation academies. And also with clearly fraudulent organizations pretending to be religious like the Church of Scientology.

I'm not aware of any contemporary examples of government action against what we would consider politically liberal or conservative churches that fall within the mainstream.

[ken_sylvania]

I'm not aware of any contemporary examples of government action against what we would consider politically liberal or conservative churches that fall within the mainstream.

I know of a contemporary example of the government pretty much shutting down a conservative church's program for troubled youth by insisting that both the young men attending the program and the volunteer workers all be paid as employees.

[Szdfan]

Churches are allowed to be involved in political issues, like LGBTQ rights or abortion.

Not that this is incorrect, but this sounds odd to my ears. Because I primarily think of these issues as sin issues, which puts them squarely within the purview of the church, not political issues. Even though they are political issues.

I agree that there's a lot of overlap Issues can be both spiritual and political. Whenever the Church goes beyond just teaching and discipling its members on sin issues and tries to influence or affect local, state and national policy, it enters the political realm. What Christians believe about abortion is in the purview of the church. Whether abortion is legal is political.

[Szdfan]

Examples?

For example, the conservative Bethel church in Redding CA has been ultra involved in both local and national politics for some time. What “cudgels” has the government applied to them?

All I asked for what is fairness. If groups loyal to a particular party are getting away with it then it's not a big deal if groups loyal to a different political party are getting away with it.

(As a matter of tax policy I don't care one whit about tax-deductible groups engaging in politicking. I do think Christians shouldn't be doing this, though, regardless of tax policy.)

I was just curious if you had any actual examples.

Far as I recall, the last time the IRS took a really hard look at the tax status of religious institutions was way back in the 1970s when they pulled tax exempt status from religiously-sponsored segregation academies. And also with clearly fraudulent organizations pretending to be religious like the Church of Scientology.

I'm not aware of any contemporary examples of government action against what we would consider politically liberal or conservative churches that fall within the mainstream.

In general, the IRS looks the other way when churches engage in partisan politics.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30 ... tions-irs/

At one point, churches fretted over losing their tax-exempt status for even unintentional missteps. But the IRS has largely abdicated its enforcement responsibilities as churches have become more brazen. In fact, the number of apparent violations found by ProPublica and the Tribune, and confirmed by three nonprofit tax law experts, is greater than the total number of churches the federal agency has investigated for intervening in political campaigns over the past decade, according to records obtained by the news organizations.

I'm aware of a coordinated effort by pastors of conservative churches who deliberately recorded themselves endorsing a candidate from the pulpit and mailed the recording to the IRS in an attempt to provoke a lawsuit with the hope/intention that the Supreme Court would strike down the Johnson Amendment, which prohibits 501c3s from politicking for candidates. For the most part, the IRS hasn't taken the bait and done anything,

There are exceptions, but for the most part, the IRS ignores the political behavior of both liberal and conservative churches.

[barnhart]

That seems like a strategy that might backfire.

[Ken]

That seems like a strategy that might backfire.

In what way? Churches might be asked to be less political? You would consider that to be "backfire"?

Honestly, I think the surest way to drive a church into irrelevance is to tie it to a particular politician or political party. One of the biggest reasons for why people leave church in the first place is over-politization.

[barnhart]

That seems like a strategy that might backfire.

In what way? Churches might be asked to be less political? You would consider that to be "backfire"

Intentionally breaking the law, recording the evidence and sending it to law enforcement.... That might have consequences.

[Ken]

That seems like a strategy that might backfire.

In what way? Churches might be asked to be less political? You would consider that to be "backfire"

Intentionally breaking the law, recording the evidence and sending it to law enforcement.... That might have consequences.

Law enforcement isn't involved. It is a civil issue not a criminal one. At worst they would be jeopardizing their tax-exempt status.

[Josh]

Harris’s campaign speeches in churches are already widely televised.