Are Mennonites Imputing Abortion Advocasy by their Judgment - a tale of two women

[mrbilliam]

Josh you took the bait and made my point.

Well, well, well. If you aren't starting to sound like the Pharisees and lawyers who were forever trying to "bait" Jesus into saying things they could use against Him.

That is as ridiculous as me accusing you of equating Josh here on mennonet to The Son of God Jesus Christ.

I didn't say anything that Josh didn't say or twist his words.

[mrbilliam]

Josh you took the bait and made my point.

You yourself called Woman1 a "fornicating single mom".
You yourself admitted the "world would marry her".

Yes, a woman who gets pregnant outside of wedlock is usually a fornicator and should be described as such. (Some women are sexually assaulted. In our circles a man who does that ends up expelled and will have a very hard time ever getting married, although it does happen - some women seem OK with a past like this, but most are not, and it takes awhile to get reaccepted after a sexual assault, not to mention the prison time. I would counsel my children not to marry such a person regardless of repentance.)

I would also go to communion with a repentant person, extend the holy kiss and right hand of fellowship and so on.

So basically a woman can come to church and be judged as a fornicating single mom who would most likely never be married, or go to the world and be forgiven and likely married.

Both women and men are likewise judged. It is fine to recognise someone has fornicated and that someone is wilfully a single parent. A lot of people don’t want to be step parents. It is fine not to want to be a step parent.

This type of harsh judgment by us "perfect Christians" seems to pile the pressure on Woman1 to advocate for her to abort the baby. Then her crime could just be "forgiven", rather than a lifetime of "shame and singleness".

I am not aware of anyone who has gotten an abortion because of Holdeman marriage practices. This simply doesn’t happen. But why don’t I tell a story of someone from the world who was indeed a single parent and didn’t get an abortion?

She showed up in church after another church member invited her who met her at a college class they were both taking. She brought in both of her children, who happen to obviously be from two different dads. They were rambunctious, crawling under and over the seats and so forth, and so forth. The other ladies on the women’s side decided to help out and entertain the children. This impressed her, and she kept coming back…

Eventually, the preaching touched her spirit and she answered God’s call of repentance. Her children ended up enrolled in our school (which is available to all members, regardless of financial means). She works as a nurse and often worked off shifts. Other folks in church helped watch her girls, and they ended up thoroughly socialised in our church culture. Fast forward a decade later… one of her girls got married at 18. A boy who came out for harvest work fell in love with her.

I met her because she was selflessly taking time off from her job to come to my congregation to assist a member who has some serious struggles with anxiety etc… she came to be with this older lady all day and help her get out of the house and accompany her to a treatment program in L.A. What an example of how a Christian should be! The lady in question still struggles but has improved significantly. She helps at school now every school day with some of the students who need individualised attention. Now she is also blessing others.

I wasn’t a member when I met this remarkable woman, and chanced to meet her at someone’s house for Sunday dinner. I was encouraged to hear her testimony and it gave me more confidence to become a member, regardless of my own past. We are all seeking a heavenly kingdom, and leaving worldly marriages, boyfriends, girlfriends, and so on behind. Jesus said the reward in heaven is far greater.

You should hear the stories about Amish girls getting off the bus and walking to the abortion clinics. They didn't want to be judged for life.

[mrbilliam]

But why don’t I tell a story of someone from the world who was indeed a single parent and didn’t get an abortion?

She showed up in church after another church member invited her who met her at a college class they were both taking. She brought in both of her children, who happen to obviously be from two different dads. They were rambunctious, crawling under and over the seats and so forth, and so forth. The other ladies on the women’s side decided to help out and entertain the children. This impressed her, and she kept coming back…

Eventually, the preaching touched her spirit and she answered God’s call of repentance. Her children ended up enrolled in our school (which is available to all members, regardless of financial means). She works as a nurse and often worked off shifts. Other folks in church helped watch her girls, and they ended up thoroughly socialised in our church culture. Fast forward a decade later… one of her girls got married at 18. A boy who came out for harvest work fell in love with her.

I met her because she was selflessly taking time off from her job to come to my congregation to assist a member who has some serious struggles with anxiety etc… she came to be with this older lady all day and help her get out of the house and accompany her to a treatment program in L.A. What an example of how a Christian should be! The lady in question still struggles but has improved significantly. She helps at school now every school day with some of the students who need individualised attention. Now she is also blessing others.

I wasn’t a member when I met this remarkable woman, and chanced to meet her at someone’s house for Sunday dinner. I was encouraged to hear her testimony and it gave me more confidence to become a member, regardless of my own past. We are all seeking a heavenly kingdom, and leaving worldly marriages, boyfriends, girlfriends, and so on behind. Jesus said the reward in heaven is far greater.

Do you and your fellow congregants go around referring to this woman as a fornicator?

After all, you just told us:

Yes, a woman who gets pregnant outside of wedlock is usually a fornicator and should be described as such.

This is EXACTLY what the point of the thread is. She is branded a fornicator. Imagine life in her shoes at that point! We'd advocate she "keeps the child" then label her a "fornicator" and ostracize her even if subtly. She'd probably be single forever. What moderate to conservative Mennonite guy would really want to "marry the fornicating girl with a child"?

That pressure and labeling contributes to the temptation a young girl could have to abort. At least then she'd feel free, the murder is out of sight, and she could still get married and heavily repent later.

The truth is, if she is labeled that way, she'd be better off going where she is not judged, ostracized, and singled out. The church is supposed to be for everybody, even the sinners and tax collectors. Jesus taught the apostles a lesson on this. She should not be judged, she should be fully accepted.

[mrbilliam]

Yes, a woman who gets pregnant outside of wedlock is usually a fornicator and should be described as such.

Are not we all guilty of sin? Would it not be appropriate to extend grace? I agree, sin brings consequences. We choose our actions but cannot choose their consequences. However, I think it may be a little haughty to be so forthcoming in your labels. According to Cambridge.org, the term fornicator implies a person who has sexual relationships outside of marriage. Notice the present tense implied in the definition. My understanding is that term implies the person continues in the said action. Curious if you go around describing brothers and sisters in the church as liars, thieves, cheaters, murderers and such? Using your method, I think the label of liar, thief, cheater, murderer could extend to all of us. Though I don't hear brothers and sisters referring to each other in such manner. I agree, we need to stand on truth but would to God that we extend grace and mercy as we do. When faced with other's sins, I have oft remembered with humility the two following phrases.

"There but for the grace of God, go I" John Bradford

"I remember two things very clearly: I am a great sinner and Christ is a great Savior.” John Newton

I appreciate this.

We are indeed all sinners. But our labels tend to vanish.

If a girl in the church had sex outside of marriage, repented, confessed, people tend to forget. Her sin is fornication.
If a girl in the church had sex outside of marriage, repented, confessed, but GOT PREGNANT, people DON'T forget. Her sin is fornication.

In each case each woman sinned the same (as did the man). But one had a different outcome. Then we tend to advocate for her to have her baby and judge her hard for the rest of her life.

The child is a permanent scarlet letter of adultery stamped on her by our judgments, which are outside the scope of our faith. That's why I believe our actions of judgment can advocate pro abortion to a scared teenaged or younger woman.

[barnhart]

So, your point is that some sins are harder to hide?

[Josh]

This is EXACTLY what the point of the thread is. She is branded a fornicator. Imagine life in her shoes at that point! We'd advocate she "keeps the child" then label her a "fornicator" and ostracize her even if subtly. She'd probably be single forever. What moderate to conservative Mennonite guy would really want to "marry the fornicating girl with a child"?

That pressure and labeling contributes to the temptation a young girl could have to abort. At least then she'd feel free, the murder is out of sight, and she could still get married and heavily repent later.

The truth is, if she is labeled that way, she'd be better off going where she is not judged, ostracized, and singled out. The church is supposed to be for everybody, even the sinners and tax collectors. Jesus taught the apostles a lesson on this. She should not be judged, she should be fully accepted.

In Holdeman circles, sometimes I’ve attended a wedding where… children of the bride or groom were present. Apparently it’s not as big of a deal as you think it is.

As I said earlier, some people are OK marrying someone with a past and entering a stepkids situation.

Very few people join from the world with intent to get married but also planning to give up on salvation and go to hell instead if they can’t get married. Myself included.

It is also very discouraging that I shared a positive testimony of a life changed by Christ and now dedicated to serving others, and all you and Ken cared to do was attack me. This is part of why I don’t share testimonies very often on MennoNet. (Bootstrap, are you listening?) And frankly it makes me wonder just how committed either of you are to Christ or to following him to the end to go to heaven someday.

In heaven there won’t be marriage nor people being given in marriage. But the precious souls I mentioned earlier will be there, if they are faithful to the end. That’s far more important to me. In Holdeman circles many people face knowing some of their children. Or even their spouse, have fallen away from the faith. Our biggest priority is making sure as many of us make it to heaven as possible and our biggest grief is seeing some fall away.

We would not trade having an earthly family for salvation. Would you?

[Josh]

You should hear the stories about Amish girls getting off the bus and walking to the abortion clinics. They didn't want to be judged for life.

The Amish need better hellfire sermons then. Perhaps they don’t really believe in heaven or hell if they think unrepentant sin like murder can be taken to heaven.

[Josh]

We are indeed all sinners. But our labels tend to vanish.

If a girl in the church had sex outside of marriage, repented, confessed, people tend to forget. Her sin is fornication.

Wrong. Nobody forgets this. Particularly when we have to have a members’ meeting to expel such a person. And then another meeting to evaluate her testimony and decide if she may be reaccepted.

I myself had to get up and give my Christian experience including adequate exposition of any death sins, without too many details, in front of the whole membership, including any youth girls. So everyone knows I was a fornicator, a drunkard, and a variety of other sins. I guarantee you that nobody has forgotten. I assure you it did not improve my marriage prospects with the audience so assembled.

Someone liked my testimony and asked a preacher in another congregation to share it when I was visiting there so I had to share it there too. Whoops, there go a lot more prospects.

If a girl in the church had sex outside of marriage, repented, confessed, but GOT PREGNANT, people DON'T forget. Her sin is fornication.

mrbilliam, I pray every day for a fallen sister from my congregation who has a child out of wedlock and currently lives with her boyfriend. We would like to see her reaccepted and seeking salvation once more (and have her son in our church school too and being raised in the fear and instruction of the Lord).

I already shared the testimony above of an unmarried mother with two children. Did you not find her testimony sufficient? I would gladly not have 100 mediocre ethnic Anabaptist families, half of whom have a foot out the door and instead have 100 women like her with a strong testimony and a desire to spread the gospel.

In each case each woman sinned the same (as did the man). But one had a different outcome. Then we tend to advocate for her to have her baby and judge her hard for the rest of her life.

The child is a permanent scarlet letter of adultery stamped on her by our judgments, which are outside the scope of our faith. That's why I believe our actions of judgment can advocate pro abortion to a scared teenaged or younger woman.

No, it isn’t, but there’s no way to pretend a husband or father is present when they aren’t. It would seem that someone who fears judgment like that fears man more than they fear God on judgment day.

Intentional lying and murder are both death sins that cause one to immediately forfeit their salvation. If these sins are found amongst you, you need a revival and people to accept the gospel but also to truly fear hell and God’s final judgment.