Are Mennonites Imputing Abortion Advocasy by their Judgment - a tale of two women

[Josh]

What if he wanted to adopt away the baby and she didn't? Would her non-adoptive choice in the matter put him on the hook forever with the holdemans? I know it's a complex question but I do think my original post is a completely valid scenario and would work that way.

An unmarried man’s desire to have a child he created is, generally speaking, irrelevant. A lot of men want this because they want to dodge paying child support.

Look, in my church, someone who fornicates is looked on very poorly. They are expelled, it’s public, and everyone will eventually find out about it. If he ever repents and is reaccepted, and then wants to send a girl a proposal, the preacher who carries the proposal will tell the young lady about his history of sexual sins he’s been expelled for and make sure she is aware of them and comfortable with them. Many parents will advise their daughter to avoid such a man.

If the girl he got pregnant is in church circles, he will basically be expected to marry her, not someone else. There is no “sweeping it under the rug”.

A girl will get a little bit of sympathy esp. if she were younger that the guy talked her into it, etc., I don’t think you realise just how much of a scandal a pregnancy outside of wedlock is. It’s also not common. It just rarely ever happens. When it does the news travels fast and the entire conference will eventually learn about it. The same is true of people who are violent towards their spouse, separated, etc.

[Josh]

Josh you took the bait and made my point.

You yourself called Woman1 a "fornicating single mom".
You yourself admitted the "world would marry her".

Yes, a woman who gets pregnant outside of wedlock is usually a fornicator and should be described as such. (Some women are sexually assaulted. In our circles a man who does that ends up expelled and will have a very hard time ever getting married, although it does happen - some women seem OK with a past like this, but most are not, and it takes awhile to get reaccepted after a sexual assault, not to mention the prison time. I would counsel my children not to marry such a person regardless of repentance.)

I would also go to communion with a repentant person, extend the holy kiss and right hand of fellowship and so on.

So basically a woman can come to church and be judged as a fornicating single mom who would most likely never be married, or go to the world and be forgiven and likely married.

Both women and men are likewise judged. It is fine to recognise someone has fornicated and that someone is wilfully a single parent. A lot of people don’t want to be step parents. It is fine not to want to be a step parent.

This type of harsh judgment by us "perfect Christians" seems to pile the pressure on Woman1 to advocate for her to abort the baby. Then her crime could just be "forgiven", rather than a lifetime of "shame and singleness".

I am not aware of anyone who has gotten an abortion because of Holdeman marriage practices. This simply doesn’t happen. But why don’t I tell a story of someone from the world who was indeed a single parent and didn’t get an abortion?

She showed up in church after another church member invited her who met her at a college class they were both taking. She brought in both of her children, who happen to obviously be from two different dads. They were rambunctious, crawling under and over the seats and so forth, and so forth. The other ladies on the women’s side decided to help out and entertain the children. This impressed her, and she kept coming back…

Eventually, the preaching touched her spirit and she answered God’s call of repentance. Her children ended up enrolled in our school (which is available to all members, regardless of financial means). She works as a nurse and often worked off shifts. Other folks in church helped watch her girls, and they ended up thoroughly socialised in our church culture. Fast forward a decade later… one of her girls got married at 18. A boy who came out for harvest work fell in love with her.

I met her because she was selflessly taking time off from her job to come to my congregation to assist a member who has some serious struggles with anxiety etc… she came to be with this older lady all day and help her get out of the house and accompany her to a treatment program in L.A. What an example of how a Christian should be! The lady in question still struggles but has improved significantly. She helps at school now every school day with some of the students who need individualised attention. Now she is also blessing others.

I wasn’t a member when I met this remarkable woman, and chanced to meet her at someone’s house for Sunday dinner. I was encouraged to hear her testimony and it gave me more confidence to become a member, regardless of my own past. We are all seeking a heavenly kingdom, and leaving worldly marriages, boyfriends, girlfriends, and so on behind. Jesus said the reward in heaven is far greater.

[Ken]

But why don’t I tell a story of someone from the world who was indeed a single parent and didn’t get an abortion?

She showed up in church after another church member invited her who met her at a college class they were both taking. She brought in both of her children, who happen to obviously be from two different dads. They were rambunctious, crawling under and over the seats and so forth, and so forth. The other ladies on the women’s side decided to help out and entertain the children. This impressed her, and she kept coming back…

Eventually, the preaching touched her spirit and she answered God’s call of repentance. Her children ended up enrolled in our school (which is available to all members, regardless of financial means). She works as a nurse and often worked off shifts. Other folks in church helped watch her girls, and they ended up thoroughly socialised in our church culture. Fast forward a decade later… one of her girls got married at 18. A boy who came out for harvest work fell in love with her.

I met her because she was selflessly taking time off from her job to come to my congregation to assist a member who has some serious struggles with anxiety etc… she came to be with this older lady all day and help her get out of the house and accompany her to a treatment program in L.A. What an example of how a Christian should be! The lady in question still struggles but has improved significantly. She helps at school now every school day with some of the students who need individualised attention. Now she is also blessing others.

I wasn’t a member when I met this remarkable woman, and chanced to meet her at someone’s house for Sunday dinner. I was encouraged to hear her testimony and it gave me more confidence to become a member, regardless of my own past. We are all seeking a heavenly kingdom, and leaving worldly marriages, boyfriends, girlfriends, and so on behind. Jesus said the reward in heaven is far greater.

Do you and your fellow congregants go around referring to this woman as a fornicator?

After all, you just told us:

Yes, a woman who gets pregnant outside of wedlock is usually a fornicator and should be described as such.

[Soloist]

Do you and your fellow congregants go around referring to this woman as a fornicator?

After all, you just told us:

Yes, a woman who gets pregnant outside of wedlock is usually a fornicator and should be described as such.

From my experience of Holderman and other Anabaptists, I would not know anyone at all that would do Josh’s approach.
They might say she was but not that she is.

[seinetsodumm]

Yes, a woman who gets pregnant outside of wedlock is usually a fornicator and should be described as such.

Are not we all guilty of sin? Would it not be appropriate to extend grace? I agree, sin brings consequences. We choose our actions but cannot choose their consequences. However, I think it may be a little haughty to be so forthcoming in your labels. According to Cambridge.org, the term fornicator implies a person who has sexual relationships outside of marriage. Notice the present tense implied in the definition. My understanding is that term implies the person continues in the said action. Curious if you go around describing brothers and sisters in the church as liars, thieves, cheaters, murderers and such? Using your method, I think the label of liar, thief, cheater, murderer could extend to all of us. Though I don't hear brothers and sisters referring to each other in such manner. I agree, we need to stand on truth but would to God that we extend grace and mercy as we do. When faced with other's sins, I have oft remembered with humility the two following phrases.

"There but for the grace of God, go I" John Bradford

"I remember two things very clearly: I am a great sinner and Christ is a great Savior.” John Newton

[justme]

I don’t think you realise just how much of a scandal a pregnancy outside of wedlock is. It’s also not common. It just rarely ever happens. When it does the news travels fast and the entire conference will eventually learn about it. The same is true of people who are violent towards their spouse, separated, etc.

All the more reason to go get an abortion and shut up about it. The less gossip, the better.

[Josh]

Do you and your fellow congregants go around referring to this woman as a fornicator?

After all, you just told us:

Yes, a woman who gets pregnant outside of wedlock is usually a fornicator and should be described as such.

On MennoNet I use this term when referring to single mothers because you made a big deal out of it.

[Josh]

Yes, a woman who gets pregnant outside of wedlock is usually a fornicator and should be described as such.

Are not we all guilty of sin? Would it not be appropriate to extend grace? I agree, sin brings consequences. We choose our actions but cannot choose their consequences. However, I think it may be a little haughty to be so forthcoming in your labels. According to Cambridge.org, the term fornicator implies a person who has sexual relationships outside of marriage. Notice the present tense implied in the definition. My understanding is that term implies the person continues in the said action. Curious if you go around describing brothers and sisters in the church as liars, thieves, cheaters, murderers and such? Using your method, I think the label of liar, thief, cheater, murderer could extend to all of us. Though I don't hear brothers and sisters referring to each other in such manner. I agree, we need to stand on truth but would to God that we extend grace and mercy as we do. When faced with other's sins, I have oft remembered with humility the two following phrases.

"There but for the grace of God, go I" John Bradford

"I remember two things very clearly: I am a great sinner and Christ is a great Savior.” John Newton

The only reason I used the label on MennoNet is because a few people had a conniption fit about it.

In real life, most people seem to understand “single mother”.

[Ken]

Yes, a woman who gets pregnant outside of wedlock is usually a fornicator and should be described as such.

Are not we all guilty of sin? Would it not be appropriate to extend grace? I agree, sin brings consequences. We choose our actions but cannot choose their consequences. However, I think it may be a little haughty to be so forthcoming in your labels. According to Cambridge.org, the term fornicator implies a person who has sexual relationships outside of marriage. Notice the present tense implied in the definition. My understanding is that term implies the person continues in the said action. Curious if you go around describing brothers and sisters in the church as liars, thieves, cheaters, murderers and such? Using your method, I think the label of liar, thief, cheater, murderer could extend to all of us. Though I don't hear brothers and sisters referring to each other in such manner. I agree, we need to stand on truth but would to God that we extend grace and mercy as we do. When faced with other's sins, I have oft remembered with humility the two following phrases.

"There but for the grace of God, go I" John Bradford

"I remember two things very clearly: I am a great sinner and Christ is a great Savior.” John Newton

The only reason I used the label on MennoNet is because a few people had a conniption fit about it.

In real life, most people seem to understand “single mother”.

Newsflash Josh: The language you choose to use in public reflects only on you and no one else.

[Neto]

I realize that the direct and primary application of Peter's vision at Simon the Tanner's house was about his attitude toward whether non-Jews could become followers of Jesus w/o following the Jewish law and customs, but I also think that it applies to sexual sins. "What God has called clean let no mere man dare to call unclean". Failing to extend grace, the same grace that was given to each of us; that makes it all the more difficult for the 'cleansed one' to remain clean. We must 'urge one another on to Godliness', not remind them of their past. Redeemed people 'with a past' are aware enough of it, and the thing they need to be reminded of is God's forgiving grace.