Are Mennonites Imputing Abortion Advocasy by their Judgment - a tale of two women

[mrbilliam]

1) Woman1 is 17 years old. She made a mistake, her passions overwhelmed her with Man1 who is also 17. She conceived life, and is expecting a baby now. Being young and in high school, she reaches out to a CAM billboard. They advocate to her AGAINST abortion. They give her the number to a crisis pregnancy line (Roman Catholic because there are no real Menno programs for this) and also the location of the nearest Mennonite church. Man1 gets scared, and heads for the hills, never to be seen again. Woman1 is now alone.

The crisis pregnancy place had some good programs, but Woman1 decides to try the Mennonite church. She goes to the church pregnant and scared. She is greeted with many helpful and friendly people who give her all smiles. She never met anybody so nice in all her life. They really didn't have a crisis pregnancy program per se.... However, eventually they find her some housing, and the church agrees to help Woman1 through the pregnancy. Woman1 finds a job at a Menno business and is helping at that job. She learns more of the Anabaptists faith.... Eventually, she adopts the cape dress and covering.

Woman1 then has her baby. She still has her job, housing, and wants to stay in the Anabaptist community. Eventually she becomes a member.

As years pass, she wonders why no male ever would speak to her. She seeks an honorable husband for real Biblical courtship. She wonders why she is a "sister" but not a "SISTER" in the church. She notices how women talk to each other differently than to her. She notices she is not exactly trusted. The baby grows to age of 5 eventually, and at 23 years of age, Woman1 is still single. She feels a bit ostracized by the older youth group. She realizes she gets the butt of jokes at youth group gatherings. Then she hears that brothers in a bros meeting were questioning her being in youth because "she had a child out of wedlock and we don't want the influence....". At 30 years of age, now with a 13 year old, Woman1 realizes she will never be married, will always be that woman who "had a child out out wedlock", and "committed adultery". A permanent "branding" of "adultery" is imputed upon her. No redemption. Never made whiter than snow. Never free indeed.




2) Woman2 is 17 years old. She made a mistake, her passions overwhelmed her with Man2 who is also 17. She conceived life, and is expecting a baby now. Being young and in high school, she reaches out to a CAM billboard. They advocate to her AGAINST abortion. They give her the number to a crisis pregnancy line (Roman Catholic because there are no real Menno programs for this) and also the location of the nearest Mennonite church. Man2 gets scared, and heads for the hills, never to be seen again. Woman2 is now alone.

The crisis pregnancy place had some good programs, but Woman2 decides to try the Mennonite church. She goes to the church pregnant and scared. SHE KEEPS IT QUIET that she is pregnant. She is greeted with many friendly people who give her all smiles. She never met anybody so nice in all her life. She learns how "moral" the other youth girls are, and she realizes that she would never be accepted in this group if she were to have her baby.

Woman2 makes a big decision. She decides to abort her child because the church will never accept her. They'll always judge her. They'll always brand her with "adultery" on her head. There will always be whispers, rumors, and murmurings.

Woman2 secretly makes an appointment at an abortion clinic. Woman2 then participates in the murder of her child.

Woman2 is in church the next Sunday. She now has murdered, but Jesus forgives all sin.... right? She gets a menno job, menno housing.. eventually adopts the cape dress and covering and becomes a member. Generally she is accepted by the church. Being a non-menno background she is a "SiStEr" but never a "SISTER". Eventually at the age of 22, a young man starts talking to her while playing volleyball. She talks to him and eventually through Biblical courtship (menno style) Marries him. Is planned sin forgivable? Whiter than snow? Free indeed? Let God be the judge. Later after 5 years of marriage she reveals to her husband her sin, and they both cry, seek Christian counseling, he forgives her and the sin is buried forever.



The point of me writing this is that we as Christians should not judge the faults of others who repent. We impute every reason to judge a woman in a bad situation where adultery was her crime. Many Anabaptists commit adultery too. That said, Woman 1 would have her life torn apart by the church itself and its judgments. Woman 2 would still get married and probably have children. Woman1 gets the results of "Christian Judgment". Woman2 gets rewarded in life for "sinning and repenting".


Do we advocate murder by judging somebody into a box?

[Soloist]

Young lady in Mennonite church, husband dies, both from the world, Husband never joined.
Wife joins after Husband dies. Has at least one offer of courtship and says no one would ever be interested in her.
She leaves the church and marries a different denomination christian partly based on the feelings of inadequacy.
Are you sure you are getting the full story here?


Not saying they can’t be true, sounds like terrible Mennonite churches if they fail to address these things. that being said, if they don’t know, how can they address?

[mrbilliam]

Young lady in Mennonite church, husband dies, both from the world, Husband never joined.
Wife joins after Husband dies. Has at least one offer of courtship and says no one would ever be interested in her.
She leaves the church and marries a different denomination christian partly based on the feelings of inadequacy.
Are you sure you are getting the full story here?


Not saying they can’t be true, sounds like terrible Mennonite churches if they fail to address these things. that being said, if they don’t know, how can they address?

Indeed. Exactly my point. If we are not to judge the faults of others (same measure is used against us), and we still do, what is the young woman to do? Of course we all advocate against abortion in our hearts, but we absolutely advocate the lifetime of judgement and shame -> which is a huge cause for many young women to get abortions.

The same applies to the world too. Young women have abortions often because nobody (often) wants a single mom who got pregnant out of wedlock. That said, in a Menno church, I think we all know that "young woman who got pregnant out of wedlock" would be ostracized and single for ever (very likely).

So do our judgments allow people to be free indeed, or do our judgments "impute" a cause which would have her decide to abort a child?

[Josh]

I feel at complete ease to say that things like murder, rape, adultery, robbery and so forth are sinful and wrong.

Nobody has an obligation to marry a (repentant) formicating-single mother, nor do they to marry a (repentant) murderer. The difference between #1 and #2 is that in our society, women can get away with killing their own children with no jail time or harsh sentence.

I would advise someone looking for a spouse to steer clear of murderers, repentant or not. (I actually advised a young woman not to do this once. She didn’t listen to me. He got away with murder on a technicality. He ended up being abusive, she eventually left him with a sob story about how mean he was.)

[Soloist]

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The same applies to the world too. Young women have abortions often because nobody (often) wants a single mom who got pregnant out of wedlock. That said, in a Menno church, I think we all know that "young woman who got pregnant out of wedlock" would be ostracized and single for ever (very likely).

So do our judgments allow people to be free indeed, or do our judgments "impute" a cause which would have her decide to abort a child?

I just think there’s a little point in you were trying to address it on Mennonet.
Very few of us would even advocate for the sort of treatment you’re saying happens.
I’ve never met anyone that would pursue these kind of “treatments”.
Why don’t you address it with the ministry of the churches where these things happened at or will they not listen to you because of your own opinions on the Conservative Mennonites?

[mrbilliam]

I feel at complete ease to say that things like murder, rape, adultery, robbery and so forth are sinful and wrong.

Nobody has an obligation to marry a (repentant) formicating-single mother, nor do they to marry a (repentant) murderer. The difference between #1 and #2 is that in our society, women can get away with killing their own children with no jail time or harsh sentence.

I would advise someone looking for a spouse to steer clear of murderers, repentant or not. (I actually advised a young woman not to do this once. She didn’t listen to me. He got away with murder on a technicality. He ended up being abusive, she eventually left him with a sob story about how mean he was.)

Yes but that is not the story of woman 2. Her story is she kept silent about her abortion, then married, then 5 years later revealed her sin to her then husband for life. Nobody has an "obligation" to marry anybody, not sure why you used that word.

But anyway, this case Woman1 would never appear to have a "clean slate" because she will have the branding of adultery on her. Woman2 can murder and lie, and still get married. Woman2 simply decides to repent/confess later when her life is all set and in order.

Do we advocate abortion because of the "fornicating single mother" stamp you just gave her. Many women would feel better off to murder, conceal, and repent later.

[Ken]

What you are criticizing is not an issue of church governance per se.

What you are describing is an issue of culture. Which is a much tougher nut to crack.

[Josh]

The same applies to the world too. Young women have abortions often because nobody (often) wants a single mom who got pregnant out of wedlock. That said, in a Menno church, I think we all know that "young woman who got pregnant out of wedlock" would be ostracized and single for ever (very likely).

So do our judgments allow people to be free indeed, or do our judgments "impute" a cause which would have her decide to abort a child?

Where are you getting this idea? In the world people date other fornicating-single parents all the time.

In Anabaptist circles, people are expected to be chaste and there are consequences for people who aren’t. When I became a church member, I simply accepted that most girls probably wouldn’t be interested in me. I would estimate 80% of girls don’t want a guy with a “past” and 50% of guys don’t want a girl with a “past”. That meant if I get married, it would probably to be someone in that 20%.

With that said, plenty of people in Anabaptist circles with a past (or even kids from out of wedlock) can and do get married. They just have to find someone who is okay dealing with that. I know a woman who would prefer to marry a man with kids since she is too old to have any (in her opinion) and she would like to be a stepmom, and she also has health issues which make her not want to ever be pregnant.

[mrbilliam]

What you are criticizing is not an issue of church governance per se.

What you are describing is an issue of culture. Which is a much tougher nut to crack.

It is in the Mennonite church culture big time. I've seen it. I've heard it. Completely there. But we can apply it to most of Christendom. We are just Mennonites so I have to ask the home base first.

[Josh]

Yes but that is not the story of woman 2. Her story is she kept silent about her abortion, then married, then 5 years later revealed her sin to her then husband for life. Nobody has an "obligation" to marry anybody, not sure why you used that word.

But anyway, this case Woman1 would never appear to have a "clean slate" because she will have the branding of adultery on her. Woman2 can murder and lie, and still get married. Woman2 simply decides to repent/confess later when her life is all set and in order.

Woman #2 is an unrepentant murderer whose conversion and baptism are invalid due to unconfessed grave sin. A while ago we had a man in our church who murdered someone, wasn’t caught, and never confessed. Unfortunately his conversion and baptism were also invalid. He was married and when this came to light it felt like a huge betrayal to his wife.

I don’t see why you care that someone can “get away with lying and still get married”. I am concerned about my eternal destiny. If I premeditate to lie for personal gain, I believe I forfeit my salvation. Our churches teach that.

Do we advocate abortion because of the "fornicating single mother" stamp you just gave her. Many women would feel better off to murder, conceal, and repent later.

Murder and lying is often the “easy way out”. A heart that wants to follow Christ will do no matter what the cost. For me salvation is far more important than getting married and having a family. I spent my first 3 years of Christian life in churches that taught I shouldn’t ever get married and I simply accepted that would be my life. Salvation and a clean conscience before God were far far more important to me.

I also know dear sisters who are not married, would like to be, and have no “skeletons in their closet”. They are sincerely following Jesus and want to stay on the narrow path to salvation. Some of them may still be single when they check in to the nursing home and don’t have any loving family of children and grandchildren to come visit them. Imagine the girl from a seeker background who doesn’t have a big extended family either. What a sweet reward to be faithful to the end, leaving behind houses, wives, husbands, children, riches, and lands to instead seek a heavenly home!