Sattler College Turmoil

[Ernie]

Why does it matter if Sattler does not have a lab?
I'm all for efficiency whether it be church meeting places or labs or farms.
If someone has a lab that is not being fully utilized 24 hours a day, why not rent from them?

[Ken]

Why does it matter if Sattler does not have a lab?
I'm all for efficiency whether it be church meeting places or labs or farms.
If someone has a lab that is not being fully utilized 24 hours a day, why not rent from them?

That isn't what they were doing. They were just expecting science students to go out and take all their lab-based science classes at different colleges. Not Sattler courses with Sattler professors. But just regular science classes offered at other colleges.

There is nothing particularly wrong with that. They are just farming out their science instruction to other local Boston universities.

[Ernie]

Why does it matter if Sattler does not have a lab?
I'm all for efficiency whether it be church meeting places or labs or farms.
If someone has a lab that is not being fully utilized 24 hours a day, why not rent from them?

That isn't what they were doing. They were just expecting science students to go out and take all their lab-based science classes at different colleges. Not Sattler courses with Sattler professors. But just regular science classes offered at other colleges.

There is nothing particularly wrong with that. They are just farming out their science instruction to other local Boston universities.

I have no problem with that either.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Why does it matter if Sattler does not have a lab?
I'm all for efficiency whether it be church meeting places or labs or farms.
If someone has a lab that is not being fully utilized 24 hours a day, why not rent from them?

It matters because without unrestricted lab availability, students are not going to be able to get the lab time necessary to be successful in those pre-healthcare courses that they ABSOLUTELY need to have a firm grasp on if they are going to be successful in further studies. Most of my class spent 2 to 3 times the assigned hours in both anatomy and microbiology labs. I will admit that most of us were “driven” with perhaps an unusual motivation to succeed.

100% of my class passed the certification exam on the first try, which is a rare feat. Pass rate in this period was 60% overall.

Now we are claiming here to be giving a “world class” education. Is it? Without the fundamental building blocks, if you are in a science/healthcare discipline, you would be better served by staying in your home community and going to the local state university. I can’t imagine studying in an environment when my most important subjects are “contracted out.” How much out of class time are these “contract” instructors going to give? Do they even care, just as long as the contract is fulfilled?

What do I know? Just 40 years of precepting new grads, as they joined the real world workforce. What their training environment was made all the difference.

[Ken]

Why does it matter if Sattler does not have a lab?
I'm all for efficiency whether it be church meeting places or labs or farms.
If someone has a lab that is not being fully utilized 24 hours a day, why not rent from them?

It matters because without unrestricted lab availability, students are not going to be able to get the lab time necessary to be successful in those pre-healthcare courses that they ABSOLUTELY need to have a firm grasp on if they are going to be successful in further studies. Most of my class spent 2 to 3 times the assigned hours in both anatomy and microbiology labs. I will admit that most of us were “driven” with perhaps an unusual motivation to succeed.

100% of my class passed the certification exam on the first try, which is a rare feat. Pass rate in this period was 60% overall.

Now we are claiming here to be giving a “world class” education. Is it? Without the fundamental building blocks, if you are in a science/healthcare discipline, you would be better served by staying in your home community and going to the local state university. I can’t imagine studying in an environment when my most important subjects are “contracted out.” How much out of class time are these “contract” instructors going to give? Do they even care, just as long as the contract is fulfilled?

What do I know? Just 40 years of precepting new grads, as they joined the real world workforce. What their training environment was made all the difference.

My middle daughter is starting her senior year studying biology at a big state university. She is on two separate research teams and has a campus job working in a genomics lab. She is around world-class labs and professors all day long and some days probably puts in 10-12 hours in the labs. The professors she is around all day are who she will be relying on for grad school recommendations and such.

Could she have gotten the same experience at a different school? She might have gotten something similar at a small liberal arts college that had a solid and developed science department but with a lot less exposure to the real world of scientific research. I don't think she would have gotten nearly the same experience if she had to commute across town for lab classes at some other university.

Of course it also depends on what you want out of college. Sattler seems very focused on putting people into medical careers and seems to do a decent job of that. Med school admissions are pretty formulaic. But for someone interested in other areas of science I don't think they would find much to offer. That is the disadvantage of such a small school with what? Less than 100 students?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Why does it matter if Sattler does not have a lab?
I'm all for efficiency whether it be church meeting places or labs or farms.
If someone has a lab that is not being fully utilized 24 hours a day, why not rent from them?

It matters because without unrestricted lab availability, students are not going to be able to get the lab time necessary to be successful in those pre-healthcare courses that they ABSOLUTELY need to have a firm grasp on if they are going to be successful in further studies. Most of my class spent 2 to 3 times the assigned hours in both anatomy and microbiology labs. I will admit that most of us were “driven” with perhaps an unusual motivation to succeed.

100% of my class passed the certification exam on the first try, which is a rare feat. Pass rate in this period was 60% overall.

Now we are claiming here to be giving a “world class” education. Is it? Without the fundamental building blocks, if you are in a science/healthcare discipline, you would be better served by staying in your home community and going to the local state university. I can’t imagine studying in an environment when my most important subjects are “contracted out.” How much out of class time are these “contract” instructors going to give? Do they even care, just as long as the contract is fulfilled?

What do I know? Just 40 years of precepting new grads, as they joined the real world workforce. What their training environment was made all the difference.

My middle daughter is starting her senior year studying biology at a big state university. She is on two separate research teams and has a campus job working in a genomics lab. She is around world-class labs and professors all day long and some days probably puts in 10-12 hours in the labs. The professors she is around all day are who she will be relying on for grad school recommendations and such.

Could she have gotten the same experience at a different school? She might have gotten something similar at a small liberal arts college that had a solid and developed science department but with a lot less exposure to the real world of scientific research. I don't think she would have gotten nearly the same experience if she had to commute across town for lab classes at some other university.

Of course it also depends on what you want out of college. Sattler seems very focused on putting people into medical careers and seems to do a decent job of that. Med school admissions are pretty formulaic. But for someone interested in other areas of science I don't think they would find much to offer. That is the disadvantage of such a small school with what? Less than 100 students?

Some of my best learning experiences were outside of formal lab time. We could sign out a disarticularted skeleton, and practice recognizing bones blindfolded. Try doing that at a “contract” lab. Restraining unknowns in micro for the third time. Getting a work-study job as an assistant. Does not happen in a contract lab. They will hand out those plums to their own students.

What I am saying is they are not getting a “world class “ education in the sciences. What they are getting is “University of Phoenix.”

[Soloist]

Some of my best learning experiences were outside of formal lab time. We could sign out a disarticularted skeleton, and practice recognizing bones blindfolded. Try doing that at a “contract” lab. Restraining unknowns in micro for the third time. Getting a work-study job as an assistant. Does not happen in a contract lab. They will hand out those plums to their own students.

What I am saying is they are not getting a “world class “ education in the sciences. What they are getting is “University of Phoenix.”

I think that’s a little harsh. We could not check out skeletons or bones in a community college and the hours to practice were limited.
The school I went to though was considered to have the best two year RN program.

[Josh]

Some of my best learning experiences were outside of formal lab time. We could sign out a disarticularted skeleton, and practice recognizing bones blindfolded. Try doing that at a “contract” lab. Restraining unknowns in micro for the third time. Getting a work-study job as an assistant. Does not happen in a contract lab. They will hand out those plums to their own students.

What I am saying is they are not getting a “world class “ education in the sciences. What they are getting is “University of Phoenix.”

I think that’s a little harsh. We could not check out skeletons or bones in a community college and the hours to practice were limited.
The school I went to though was considered to have the best two year RN program.

There are differences between a major research school and a community college.

My cousin went to Vanderbilt and took the bone box with her on a trip over Thanksgiving etc once (which took some explaining at the airport security X-ray checkpoint).

[Soloist]

There are differences between a major research school and a community college.

My cousin went to Vanderbilt and took the bone box with her on a trip over Thanksgiving etc once (which took some explaining at the airport security X-ray checkpoint).

Definitely, but is Sattler billing itself as a college for research of medical fields? As far as I could see the only academic claim it really had of note was religion.
Sure, it can be a route to medical school, but it’s not particularly prestigious.

[Ken]

There are differences between a major research school and a community college.

My cousin went to Vanderbilt and took the bone box with her on a trip over Thanksgiving etc once (which took some explaining at the airport security X-ray checkpoint).

Definitely, but is Sattler billing itself as a college for research of medical fields? As far as I could see the only academic claim it really had of note was religion.
Sure, it can be a route to medical school, but it’s not particularly prestigious.

It has very limited offerings. Which is fine if your 17 year old knows exactly what they want to do and their aspirations line up with perfectly with Sattler. Not so great if they don't really know what they want to do. Or if they maybe do know what they want and they are getting family pressure to attend Sattler (or any other similar school) and it doesn't line up with their interests.

Say what you want about more traditional and established religious colleges but they do provide vastly more options and experiences than Sattler.

What Sattler seems to be doing in practice is marketing higher education to a certain segment of the conservative Anabaptist community that for whatever combination of reasons hasn't built their own institutions. Which is kind of strange in my book. Every other example of a religious or faith-based college that I am aware of is the product of a particular denomination itself. That is how and why they get built.

With my youngest daughter about to start college this month I think about these things a lot. I have come to believe that the model taken by the Jewish and Muslim communities makes the most sense. There are a couple of Jewish colleges in the US but the vast majority of Jewish American students attend ordinary public or private schools where they generally find strong and organized campus groups supporting Judaism. Same for Muslims. There aren't any serious Muslim universities in the US. Instead you see Muslim students on every major campus in the US where they are supported by well-funded Muslim groups and organizations that support Muslim students.

I attended Goshen College in the early 1980s (but didn't graduate from there). And back then I think the biggest reason why a lot of Mennonite parents (including mine) sent their kids to Goshen was to find a good Menno spouse. And one from the "right" family of course, not some recent convert.