Meanwhile, in France

[Ken]

It was prophesied the Falling Away was to happen, seems we are rapidly heading there.

Yeah, it‘s in full swing.

I agree that is the landscape, but God loves to do hard things and often in surprising ways and unexpected times. This conversation highlights some of the discomfort I have with capital "D" Dispensationalism. If we give up on the ability of the gospel of Jesus to appeal to Europe because of end times prophecy, I think we have misunderstood the scripture.

This is what Pew says



I think it is somewhat like here in the US with all the self-identified conservative Christian types who identify as Christian but no longer bother to attend church. They just use the label as a cultural and political signifier.

[temporal1]

In the world, many recognize, “no press is bad press,” which has been demonstrated again+again, wrt worldly goals.

In my view, scriptures give us a similar promise wrt God’s perfect and eternal Truth, “God uses all for His purposes,”
for example:

Proverbs 16:4
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/16-4.htm

3Commit your works to the LORD and your plans will be achieved.

4The LORD has made everything for His purpose—
even the wicked for the day of disaster.

5Everyone who is proud in heart is detestable to the LORD;
be assured that he will not go unpunished.…

i was encouraged to see initial responses to the blatant carnal displays from (very well educated and well informed) church leaders, some in France, other locations in Europe (without question these are contemporary dens of secularism).

so often, church leaders are lukewarm, if not silent, even deluded. here is an example of clarity. for-all-the-world-to-see.

i’m very interested in seeing what God’s will is for “all this,” i believe He is present, and He will have His way.
how that looks is often a mystery - - to our limited eyesight.

but, no mystery regarding “who prevails.”

[Josh]

It was prophesied the Falling Away was to happen, seems we are rapidly heading there.

Yeah, it‘s in full swing.

I agree that is the landscape, but God loves to do hard things and often in surprising ways and unexpected times. This conversation highlights some of the discomfort I have with capital "D" Dispensationalism. If we give up on the ability of the gospel of Jesus to appeal to Europe because of end times prophecy, I think we have misunderstood the scripture.

Yes, I would not say the hardness of hearts has anything to do with prophecy. And finding ways to reach 'unreachable' people is important. (There is a similar 'unreachable' group in my home state, Bantu-Somalis, and there are people doing their very best to find a way to reach them.) But how on earth to reach these people is certainly something I have no idea about.

If you send Mennonites to go do a mission in a Western European country, they will end up spending their time with immigrants (maybe 2nd or 3rd generation), but not actual-natives of those lands.

[temporal1]

I can confirm that northwestern Europe is a barren ground for evangelization. At best, people don‘t give a rip about the Christian faith but often they are downright hostile against it.

At least 6 decades of ever-increasing secularism/depravity (of contemporary times).
There were varying waves throughout history, certainly BC. Interesting, though, authentic Christians have persevered, even when in small numbers, maybe always in small numbers, these having so much in common, regardless of location, language, or era.

And, the seekers. Seeking, even when the goal seemed so elusive. Even seeking has a universal quality.
Seeking, “knowing” God exists, even in confusion and not knowing.

Jesus loves those who believe in faith, trusting, not knowing. John 20:28
https://biblehub.com/john/20-28.htm

[Valerie]

Yeah, it‘s in full swing.

I agree that is the landscape, but God loves to do hard things and often in surprising ways and unexpected times. This conversation highlights some of the discomfort I have with capital "D" Dispensationalism. If we give up on the ability of the gospel of Jesus to appeal to Europe because of end times prophecy, I think we have misunderstood the scripture.

Yes, I would not say the hardness of hearts has anything to do with prophecy. And finding ways to reach 'unreachable' people is important. (There is a similar 'unreachable' group in my home state, Bantu-Somalis, and there are people doing their very best to find a way to reach them.) But how on earth to reach these people is certainly something I have no idea about.

If you send Mennonites to go do a mission in a Western European country, they will end up spending their time with immigrants (maybe 2nd or 3rd generation), but not actual-natives of those lands.

This is what I'm thinking. We cannot get around the fact that the "Falling Away" must happen, not because God wants it to, but it is a reality of the last of the Last Days. I'm not implying it means people are not reachable, but Jesus said this was to happen. Even this is said about Jesus Himself "KJV
"But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,"
I'm also realizing in considering this, the Apostles & disciples were totally led by the ZHoly Spirit nowhere to go. The Spirit knows where there can be a harvest. If people spend time of missionaries in areas where there is no ripe harvest as Swiss Bro is saying, they could be led by the Spirit elsewhere. That part of the world was already evangelized and now going the way, of the falling away. But if someone feels led by the Spirit to go- then of course GO.

There are parts of the world, like Iran for example, where the Gospel is being well received.

[Swiss Bro]

It was prophesied the Falling Away was to happen, seems we are rapidly heading there.

Yeah, it‘s in full swing.

I agree that is the landscape, but God loves to do hard things and often in surprising ways and unexpected times. This conversation highlights some of the discomfort I have with capital "D" Dispensationalism. If we give up on the ability of the gospel of Jesus to appeal to Europe because of end times prophecy, I think we have misunderstood the scripture.

Nobody said we should give up.

[barnhart]

Yes, we certainly should not. My alliance of churches is sending missionaries to Quebec to plant a church because it is the most de- churches region on our continent. Demographically it resembles Europe in some ways.

I really admire the workers we have sent, they are preaching the gospel to a society that is richer, more educated, less violent, has better performing schools, healthier, fewer people in prison than the society they come from. I think that situation strips away a lot of false pride and leaves you with nothing to offer but Jesus.

[Josh]

Yes, we certainly should not. My alliance of churches is sending missionaries to Quebec to plant a church because it is the most de- churches region on our continent. Demographically it resembles Europe in some ways.

I really admire the workers we have sent, they are preaching the gospel to a society that is richer, more educated, less violent, has better performing schools, healthier, fewer people in prison than the society they come from. I think that situation strips away a lot of false pride and leaves you with nothing to offer but Jesus.

We have one mission and one established church there. As far as I know, that’s the only Anabaptist presence so far in French speaking Canada.

[temporal1]

viewtopic.php?t=91

[barnhart]

Back to the French opening ceremonies for the Olympics, I see several layers of meaning.
1. The most surface level is the Olympic games are pagan, not Christian. It should be no great surprise when pagan values surface.
2. I suspect the cover story provided by the committee is partially true. It likely was initially a recreation of a mythical pagan feast but someone thought it would be clever to include elements from the last supper painting and get a two for the price of one reaction. For which they were rewarded. Cultural conservatives cooperatively provided the reaction required to draw attention to an otherwise forgettable event.
3. On a slightly deeper level, one could ask if this particular portrayal of the feast of Dionysus is more of a copy of the Last Supper painting than the Last Supper painting was a copy of earlier paintings of the feast of Dionysus. Michaelangelo's composition made little effort to hew toward the historical scene, rather incorporating imagery from his contemporary society (European faces and architecture) and from earlier paintings of pagan myth (seating on one side of the table for feast of excess and display). Possibly he was making a statement about his own society and it's values by putting it in a biblical concept. If so, this is similar to the current French re-creation which injects current values like pleasure, individualism and gender fluidity into the "biblical" scene and also back into the pagan context. I don't approve, but it is clever on some level because it forces a false dichotomy, accept current values or hypocritically reject them for "Christian" culture markers which have roots in pagan myth.
4. On the deepest level, they pay an unknowing compliment to Christianity by illustrating the root of Christianity is a king who was mocked and disrespected, did not retaliate and asked his followers to do the same. They confirm our identity as sheep. The wolves are those who fight back at insult.