Sunday School class on the church and power

[barnhart]

Next Sunday, I start a 12 week course on the relationship of the church to power through the ages.The first week is the interplay between Rome and the early church.

This thread is for thoughts and resources for this class. What would you like to share with such a class if you were teaching. What would you hold up as a positive example as well as negative examples.

[Bootstrap]

I remember you as a Tom Holland fan, is that accurate? His podcasts go into the power dynamics of various kingdoms and the church. He has recently done podcasts that are essentially the first chapter of some of his books - Rubicon and Dynasty. Millennium, Persian Fire, In The Shadow Of The Sword. Perhaps useful for people who want more depth, and for the leader to think through and summarize, comparing with Jesus' approach to power?

For instance:

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/t ... 1537788786

27 June 2024Rubicon: The Triumph and Tragedy of the Roman Republic

The Roman Republic was the most remarkable state in history. What began as a small community of peasants camped among marshes and hills ended up ruling the known world. Rubicon paints a vivid portrait of the Republic at the climax of its greatness – the same greatness which would herald the catastrophe of its fall.

It is a story of incomparable drama. This was the century of Julius Caesar, the gambler whose addiction to glory led him to the banks of the Rubicon, and beyond; of Cicero, whose defence of freedom would make him a byword for eloquence; of Spartacus, the slave who dared to challenge a superpower; of Cleopatra, the queen who did the same.

Tom Holland brings to life this strange and unsettling civilization, with its extremes of ambition and self-sacrifice, bloodshed and desire. Yet alien as it was, the Republic still holds up a mirror to us. Its citizens were obsessed by celebrity chefs, all-night dancing and exotic pets; they fought elections in law courts and were addicted to spin; they toppled foreign tyrants in the name of self-defence. Two thousand years may have passed, but we remain the Romans’ heirs.

27 JUN 2024 Dynasty: The Rise and Fall of the House of Caesar

Dynasty continues Rubicon's story, opening where that book ended: with the murder of Julius Caesar. This is the period of the first and perhaps greatest Roman Emperors and it's a colorful story of rule and ruination, running from the rise of Augustus through to the death of Nero. Holland's expansive history also has distinct shades of I Claudius, with five wonderfully vivid (and in three cases, thoroughly depraved) Emperors—Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero—featured, along with numerous fascinating secondary characters. Intrigue, murder, naked ambition and treachery, greed, gluttony, lust, incest, pageantry, decadence—the tale of these five Caesars continues to cast a mesmerizing spell across the millennia.

[barnhart]

Thanks boot. I am a bit of a fan of Tom Holland, and those are useful quotes. Google recently started offering AI articles with searches but when I asked for information about the early church interaction with Roman imperial cult, it said AI article not available on this topic. I guess that is beyond the imagination of AI.

[Jazman]

Next Sunday, I start a 12 week course on the relationship of the church to power through the ages.The first week is the interplay between Rome and the early church.

This thread is for thoughts and resources for this class. What would you like to share with such a class if you were teaching. What would you hold up as a positive example as well as negative examples.

Oh wow, I wish you were teaching this at our church! I'm glad to hear you're doing it, anywhere. It is a very needed discussion in all our churches (but with an Anabaptist slant would be my preference - which I'm sure you'll bring)

To your question:
- I haven't read it yet, but a new book by NT Wright and Michael Bird Jesus and the Powers might be of help? (Or just online stuff from those two NT scholars... Michael Bird's Substack blog?

And oldie now, but maybe you've read Greg Boyd's Myth of a Christian Nation? His framing of "power over" vs "power under" has always stuck with me.

Those are 2 quick things... I'll post more if I think of it or bump into it. (I've been working off on-n-on a sermon/talk myself centered around Jesus and all the different factions (Romans, Hellenistic Jews, Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, more?) around Him and how they are somewhat analogous to the political or political/religious factions we grapple with and how He responded to them. I think it's interesting how he never sided with them - they tried but they could never get Him on "their side" and eventually they killed Him (1 of multiple reasons I suppose).

[barnhart]

Thanks Jazzman. I knew of those books but I had gotten about them both. I will check them out.

[Jazman]

Barnhart, here's something else I found recently as my thoughts have been recently ruminating on the idea of neo-Christendom (a real desire I fear among many american christians...) This is ironic or doubly fascinating because it's a Catholic author... amazing what time and the Spirit? can do, but I think his case is somewhat analogous to an Anabaptist one (minus the Pope and maybe some other things) But I think you could quote the recent Pope quoted at the very beginning!
Here it is: The Church's Mission and the Allure of Neo-Christendom

[Ken]

Next Sunday, I start a 12 week course on the relationship of the church to power through the ages.The first week is the interplay between Rome and the early church.

This thread is for thoughts and resources for this class. What would you like to share with such a class if you were teaching. What would you hold up as a positive example as well as negative examples.

There are endless negative examples which basically take two forms. First, where the church uses the state to advance its own power. Most of European history is full of that sort of thing. Bishops and Cardinals who are at the seat of power and manipulate world events. The second category of examples is where the church allows itself to be used as a weapon of the state to advance state power. Religious arguments and support for things like slavery, westward expansion and the genocide of native peoples, that sort of thing. They are different but both bad.

I suppose the good examples would be where the church speaks truth to power. Such as during the Civil Rights movement. Anti-war movement and so forth.

[barnhart]

Next Sunday the topic will be Constantine, Galarius, the Edict of Milan, and the Edict of Thessalonica and how the position of the empire softened toward the church as their numbers grew. Also Augustine, The City of God and how theology adapted into the social space evacuated by empire.

Does anyone have resources to recommend or just personal thoughts and essays.

[barnhart]

Week 4 will jump to the 11th century and the crusades. I will try to cover false ideas around church power, growth and expansion through t lense of the 11th century zeal to recover the Holy Lands.

[Arnold33_09]

Check out the Edict of Milan for a positive shift in religious tolerance. For a negative example, look at the Church’s power struggles in the medieval period, like the Investiture Controversy.