High Demand Religions?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
seinetsodumm
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2024 1:10 pm
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: High Demand Religions?

Post by seinetsodumm »

Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 5:41 am
You are not in the position to call early church writers false teachers or call out false doctrine in regards to this topic. You are 2000 years out from Apostles starting Churches. You are defending Anabaptists for their beliefs which is understandable but they are simply wrong about their conclusions. And I loaned my early church writers book out but you are wrong that this started in 300.
EVERY country the Apostles started the Church, east or west, the "norm" was infant baptism. It was stated as fact not "guessing" that the Apostles themselves taught it.
Anyone questioning it, like I remember Tertullian did, and I believe that was before 300 that he questioned it, well he left the Church anyways to become a Montanist, a sect that eventually died out. But the "common" practice was for Believers to baptize their infants. As OJ pointed out about Anabaptists differing each other in application, same would be true of the original Church- early church writers BEFORE 300 had opinions on how old the infant should be- how many days old.
I think each of us has a responsibility as a believer to call out false doctrine that does not align with Scripture. God has preserved Scripture for us and it can be used to try the doctrine of man, whether that man be apostle or peer. We are told in 2 Timothy 3:16,
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
And Paul writes in Galatians 1:8
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you that that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
John 14 records "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you."

So yes, as believers with God's Spirit in us, we do have the ability to call out that which is contrary to scripture. Just because an early "church father" wrote something does not mean that writing is truth. Using the argument of oral tradition does not give credence to an idea. Paul clearly teaches that if something does not line of with God's word, it should not be heeded.
Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 5:41 am Differing opinions on baptism does not fall in the category of heresy.

I believe in total immersion. I could say to teach pouring or sprinkling is heresy. But I can read the early church allowed for poring if there was not water available for total immersion.
It seems to me that baptizing infants vs adults and pouring vs immersion are not in the same category and cannot be treated as the same. They are not opinions. One is a command of Christ and one is an application of that command. Christ commands baptism. In Scripture when people were baptized, they were baptized upon request and this request was preceded by repentance (Act 2:38 "And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized)' An infant cannot repent or ask for baptism. In scripture, repentance is a prerequisite to baptism. Furthermore baptism was received willingly, not forcefully. A 'baptism' of infants is nothing more than a bath. I prefer to give my children their bath at home.

As to immersion vs pouring, that is an application of a scriptural command. Scripture is not explicit in whether immersion or pouring constitutes baptism. It simply says to be baptized. Let's be careful not to put a command and an application into the same category.
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Sudsy

Re: High Demand Religions?

Post by Sudsy »

seinetsodumm wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 4:09 pm Let's be careful not to put a command and an application into the same category.
So, if I follow you correctly, the command to 'be ye holy' is in a different category as far as 'application' on how one is to be holy ? Could you explain more on this category thing ? Some would say the word 'baptize' means 'to immerse', so how is this not a command but an application ? I'm not understanding the category thing. But then again, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
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seinetsodumm
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2024 1:10 pm
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: High Demand Religions?

Post by seinetsodumm »

Sudsy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 4:28 pm
seinetsodumm wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 4:09 pm Let's be careful not to put a command and an application into the same category.
So, if I follow you correctly, the command to 'be ye holy' is in a different category as far as 'application' on how one is to be holy ? Could you explain more on this category thing ? Some would say the word 'baptize' means 'to immerse', so how is this not a command but an application ? I'm not understanding the category thing. But then again, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
I don't know, perhaps category was the wrong way to put it. I'm simply saying Christ commands repentance followed by baptism. He does not go on to elaborate what baptism means in terms of sprinkling vs pouring. Much in the same way he commands us to keep the Lord's supper but does not specify whether we should use fresh squeezed grape juice or organic grape wine. Obedience to Christ command is paramount. There is blessing in obedience.

His command to be holy seems pretty straightforward to me. Be holy. Be Christlike. I'm not sure an argument about application of holiness is valid. Our actions will bear testament.
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Valerie

Re: High Demand Religions?

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:20 pm
Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 5:41 am you are wrong
Perhaps the bold font was not intentional since one of the quoted posts does not have a [/b], but please keep in mind the guidelines:
Robert wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:33 pm Do not state that someone else is wrong. State your own thoughts and opinions.
I'm sorry, no it was not intentional.
Hopefully we can agree to disagree but both sides are saying the other is wrong- don't you think calling ones belief heresy and nonsense is same thing as saying their wrong?
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Josh

Re: High Demand Religions?

Post by Josh »

Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:43 pm I'm sorry, no it was not intentional.
Hopefully we can agree to disagree but both sides are saying the other is wrong- don't you think calling ones belief heresy and nonsense is same thing as saying their wrong?
It's not personal - I'm not saying YOUR beliefs are wrong; I'm saying the following beliefs are wrong in general:

- That the apostles or the Bible teaches or even allows infant baptism.

- That we need to just sort of all "get along" with each other in some kind of ecumenical fellowship when actually very major differences exist between us that cannot be easily reconciled.

- That Anabaptism is not correct and is not the true teachings of the Bible.

- That Eastern Orthodoxy is not schismatic.

- That Anabaptism is somehow uniquely schismatic or worse so than Eastern Orthodoxy, Protestantism, etc.

There are many people who believe this, and I don't have any personal ought against them - I am, however, opposed to these belief systems as a whole.
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Sudsy

Re: High Demand Religions?

Post by Sudsy »

seinetsodumm wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 4:45 pm
Sudsy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 4:28 pm
seinetsodumm wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 4:09 pm Let's be careful not to put a command and an application into the same category.
So, if I follow you correctly, the command to 'be ye holy' is in a different category as far as 'application' on how one is to be holy ? Could you explain more on this category thing ? Some would say the word 'baptize' means 'to immerse', so how is this not a command but an application ? I'm not understanding the category thing. But then again, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
I don't know, perhaps category was the wrong way to put it. I'm simply saying Christ commands repentance followed by baptism. He does not go on to elaborate what baptism means in terms of sprinkling vs pouring. Much in the same way he commands us to keep the Lord's supper but does not specify whether we should use fresh squeezed grape juice or organic grape wine. Obedience to Christ command is paramount. There is blessing in obedience.

His command to be holy seems pretty straightforward to me. Be holy. Be Christlike. I'm not sure an argument about application of holiness is valid. Our actions will bear testament.
Thankyou for your reply. I won't get into why I have different views than you on some of this as I don't share your view on what is 'straightforward' or what it requires of us to be holy but I do agree we should be obedient to our convictions.

I also believe that although as a Christian with the Holy Spirit living within me, I can't take for granted that what I understand at the moment is the absolute truth. Nor the way I apply those truths are correct. The fact that we come from different faith groups and have different beliefs and applications proves to me that all of us currently see through a glass darkly. We all now only know in part. When we see Jesus someday the full truth will be known.

So, being dogmatic to the point that my beliefs and applications are beyond questioning can be dangerous to me learning truth. That is my view at the moment.
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Josh

Re: High Demand Religions?

Post by Josh »

Sudsy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:52 pm Thankyou for your reply. I won't get into why I have different views than you on some of this as I don't share your view on what is 'straightforward' or what it requires of us to be holy but I do agree we should be obedient to our convictions.

I also believe that although as a Christian with the Holy Spirit living within me, I can't take for granted that what I understand at the moment is the absolute truth. Nor the way I apply those truths are correct. The fact that we come from different faith groups and have different beliefs and applications proves to me that all of us currently see through a glass darkly. We all now only know in part. When we see Jesus someday the full truth will be known.

So, being dogmatic to the point that my beliefs and applications are beyond questioning can be dangerous to me learning truth. That is my view at the moment.
I think it's important to have some beliefs that are beyond questionning. For example, I think believing in adult baptism is something that should be "beyond question". I don't think we need to give any quarter to thoughts of baptising babies, or horses, or donkeys.

Other things can be points of disagreement.
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Sudsy

Re: High Demand Religions?

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:54 pm
Sudsy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:52 pm Thankyou for your reply. I won't get into why I have different views than you on some of this as I don't share your view on what is 'straightforward' or what it requires of us to be holy but I do agree we should be obedient to our convictions.

I also believe that although as a Christian with the Holy Spirit living within me, I can't take for granted that what I understand at the moment is the absolute truth. Nor the way I apply those truths are correct. The fact that we come from different faith groups and have different beliefs and applications proves to me that all of us currently see through a glass darkly. We all now only know in part. When we see Jesus someday the full truth will be known.

So, being dogmatic to the point that my beliefs and applications are beyond questioning can be dangerous to me learning truth. That is my view at the moment.
I think it's important to have some beliefs that are beyond questionning. For example, I think believing in adult baptism is something that should be "beyond question". I don't think we need to give any quarter to thoughts of baptising babies, or horses, or donkeys.

Other things can be points of disagreement.
And that is your belief. Another Christian might say baptism that is not by immersion is not biblical baptism. Or as the Oneness Pentecostals would say not being baptised in Jesus name is not a valid baptism and you need to be re-baptised.

However, imo, I don't think any Christian or any group of Christians know exactly what beliefs are beyond question. Myself if I was to chose a belief that is "beyond question" it would be what Paul referred to as what is of first importance to believe to be saved.
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Judas Maccabeus

Re: High Demand Religions?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:46 pm
Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:43 pm I'm sorry, no it was not intentional.
Hopefully we can agree to disagree but both sides are saying the other is wrong- don't you think calling ones belief heresy and nonsense is same thing as saying their wrong?
It's not personal - I'm not saying YOUR beliefs are wrong; I'm saying the following beliefs are wrong in general:

- That the apostles or the Bible teaches or even allows infant baptism.

- That we need to just sort of all "get along" with each other in some kind of ecumenical fellowship when actually very major differences exist between us that cannot be easily reconciled.

- That Anabaptism is not correct and is not the true teachings of the Bible.

- That Eastern Orthodoxy is not schismatic.

- That Anabaptism is somehow uniquely schismatic or worse so than Eastern Orthodoxy, Protestantism, etc.

There are many people who believe this, and I don't have any personal ought against them - I am, however, opposed to these belief systems as a whole.
I would add that we, as Anabaptists are somehow spiritually or intellectually deficient in that we do not accept the teachings of the Orthodox or Roman Catholic Church, or accept its oral tradition, extra biblical writings or anti Biblical doctrine. Historically we have called them false teachings and heresy. This represents roughly 500 years of unbroken practice.
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Judas Maccabeus

Re: High Demand Religions?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Sudsy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:14 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:54 pm
Sudsy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:52 pm Thankyou for your reply. I won't get into why I have different views than you on some of this as I don't share your view on what is 'straightforward' or what it requires of us to be holy but I do agree we should be obedient to our convictions.

I also believe that although as a Christian with the Holy Spirit living within me, I can't take for granted that what I understand at the moment is the absolute truth. Nor the way I apply those truths are correct. The fact that we come from different faith groups and have different beliefs and applications proves to me that all of us currently see through a glass darkly. We all now only know in part. When we see Jesus someday the full truth will be known.

So, being dogmatic to the point that my beliefs and applications are beyond questioning can be dangerous to me learning truth. That is my view at the moment.
I think it's important to have some beliefs that are beyond questionning. For example, I think believing in adult baptism is something that should be "beyond question". I don't think we need to give any quarter to thoughts of baptising babies, or horses, or donkeys.

Other things can be points of disagreement.
And that is your belief. Another Christian might say baptism that is not by immersion is not biblical baptism. Or as the Oneness Pentecostals would say not being baptised in Jesus name is not a valid baptism and you need to be re-baptised.

However, imo, I don't think any Christian or any group of Christians know exactly what beliefs are beyond question. Myself if I was to chose a belief that is "beyond question" it would be what Paul referred to as what is of first importance to believe to be saved.
Than, with the worldview that is being presented here, how does one even know that beyond question? How does one even know that anyone can be saved?

The epistemology presented here leads only to a great foggy cloud of unknowing. It is more eastern in its origin than Christian.
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