Why have the Anabaptists FAILED at Reaching the Masses

[barnhart]

Did Jesus fail when his message did not move the masses.

[Ernie]

In the other thread that MrBilliam started earlier this year, we talked about the word perseveration.

What is perseveration? (a different word than perseverance)

Perseveration is when someone “gets stuck” on a topic or an idea. People who perseverate often say the same thing or behave in the same way over and over again. But they can get stuck on their emotions, actions, and thoughts, too. And they do it past the point where it makes sense or will change anything.

I wonder what causes a person to emerge from the shadows and start throwing rocks. Then retreat to the shadows for a while, only to re-emerge to throw more rocks.

Some on MN have explained that most Anabaptists have no desire to reach the masses.
Some have explained that most people in the world are not interested in being part of a church that requires non-violence and separation from the world.
Those are two main reasons and I think they account for 98% of why Anabaptists have failed to reach the masses.

Others of us have a desire to reach the masses, but the laborers are few. We pray regularly for more laborers. But rather than throw rocks, we invite people to join the ranks of those attempting to reach the masses.

Change in hearts and communities happens whenever people take on the mind and character of Christ, and then demonstrate to the world what it would look like if everyone followed Jesus the way they do.

[mrbilliam]

Two things can be true at once;
Mennonites might be pathetic.
And Eastern Orthodox used violence and power of the state to persecute any Christian competition, in order to consolidate worldly power and influence.

Frankly, I am comfortable dismissing out of hand the Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, and Eastern Orthodox and Muslim numbers by simple virtue of their history of conversion by force. While our people were being slaughtered and harassed out of house and home and country.
As a nonresistance and separate Christian, I am not even playing that game, I am playing a whole different game. It’s like complaining that a basketball (them) team has scored 110 points in 48 minutes, while the soccer (us) team only scored 1 point in 90 minutes. Apples and Oranges.

So while Mennonites might in fact be pathetic, to compare us to these guys, is also pathetic.

Mennos also collaborated with Nazi's and had violence in their beginning. Let's not forget about that.

Baptists and AOG churches have not been violent. Seventh Day Adventists are HUGE and growing fast and they are non-resistant.

The Nazi Mennonites are irrelevant to this particular topic, as are the Munsterites, unless you are saying that these two groups were particularly keen on evangelism. I doubt these two groups cared much about Brother Yoder’s wife’s flip-flops, or Brother Marlin Miller’s son Eli’s hair part, for example.

I do personally find the Seventh Day’er comparison convincing and convicting, as I do the Jehovah Witnesses. Not that they are correct at all, but I do view them as voluntary and evangelistic. I don’t know why we can’t do what they do. What are their growth rates compared to ours? I expect they are lapping us, but didn’t look it up.

The Baptist? Easy believeism, child conversion, eternal security, makes it easy to become and remain Baptist, without dying to self, or sinning. But I will give them credit for evangelism efforts for sure.

So are you saying the Anabaptists have been successful and righteously following Matthew 28's Great Commission?

I mean we can bash all the other churches we want. The numbers of members speak for themselves.

[mrbilliam]

In the other thread that MrBilliam started earlier this year, we talked about the word perseveration.

What is perseveration? (a different word than perseverance)

Perseveration is when someone “gets stuck” on a topic or an idea. People who perseverate often say the same thing or behave in the same way over and over again. But they can get stuck on their emotions, actions, and thoughts, too. And they do it past the point where it makes sense or will change anything.

I wonder what causes a person to emerge from the shadows and start throwing rocks. Then retreat to the shadows for a while, only to re-emerge to throw more rocks.

Some on MN have explained that most Anabaptists have no desire to reach the masses.
Some have explained that most people in the world are not interested in being part of a church that requires non-violence and separation from the world.
Those are two main reasons and I think they account for 98% of why Anabaptists have failed to reach the masses.

Others of us have a desire to reach the masses, but the laborers are few. We pray regularly for more laborers. But rather than throw rocks, we invite people to join the ranks of those attempting to reach the masses.

Change in hearts and communities happens whenever people take on the mind and character of Christ, and then demonstrate to the world what it would look like if everyone followed Jesus the way they do.

Ernie, I agree the laborers are few. That said, Biblically the laborers were few too and Christianity spread.

Also the non-violence thing can't hold up to the Seventh Day Adventists. They've spread like crazy and we (Anabaptists) been around 3 times as long.

"A Christian is either a missionary or an imposter" - C.S.

"No desire to reach the masses" is not a Christian path whatsoever.

Throwing rocks or sharpening iron? We have not succeeded. Ananbaptists need hard admonishment for this. We are not strong. We are weak. Many CA churches even have 1st cousins marrying because there are so few converts. This won't end well.

[RZehr]

So are you saying the Anabaptists have been successful and righteously following Matthew 28's Great Commission?

What did I write that would make you think that?

I mean we can bash all the other churches we want. The numbers of members speak for themselves.

Yes. Yes we can indeed bash all we want, right?

But no. Number don’t speak for themselves. If you at all care about genuine Christianity. And no, that is not to say that Mennonites are completely successful in practicing real Christianity. But I do think that we teach real Christianity.

[mrbilliam]

]
So are you saying the Anabaptists have been successful and righteously following Matthew 28's Great Commission?

What did I write that would make you think that?

]
I mean we can bash all the other churches we want. The numbers of members speak for themselves.

Yes. Yes we can indeed bash all we want, right?

But no. Number don’t speak for themselves. If you at all care about real Christianity.

Yes, I care about preaching Christ crucified to others. I care about teaching that Jesus died for our sins. I do not care about telling somebody that their beard or lack thereof is against the church rules... or their wife's head covering has a weird frilly trim (our churches exclude from communion for this garbage).

Until we can draw numbers of people hearing the gospel first and about Jesus, I don't think we have the right to criticize their lack of "real Christianity".

You really think Jesus meant for us to be in-fighting about women's shoes? Do you really think Jesus meant for us to be debating small flowers vs. solid dresses? Is this "real Christianity"? Do you believe that?

Or would Jesus rather us be knocking on our neighbors doors in large metropolitan areas telling them that Jesus loves them and offers real hope for their life?

[Ernie]

Ernie, I agree the laborers are few. That said, Biblically the laborers were few too and Christianity spread.

I and others are saying that the reason there are few laborers is because few desire to take the Gospel to the masses.

Also the non-violence thing can't hold up to the Seventh Day Adventists. They've spread like crazy and we (Anabaptists) been around 3 times as long.

A reason Plain Anabaptist are not spreading is because only a small percentage have interest in taking the Gospel to the masses.

"A Christian is either a missionary or an imposter" - C.S.

We've been asking you to help us learn how you take the Gospel to the masses. I for one am always looking for more effective ways of doing this.

"No desire to reach the masses" is not a Christian path whatsoever.

I won't argue with this conclusion at all.
You asked why Anabaptists are not reaching the masses and various ones of us have been explaining why they have not.
If you want to know how to get people who are complacent begin charting a Christian path, I highly recommend going and learning from those who are helping people chart a Christian path. See what sort of principles govern their lives and learn their techniques. Then you too can help people chart a Christian path who are currently complacent.

Throwing rocks or sharpening iron?

Gary and I and others have explained how we think sharpening iron takes place.
I invite you to join the ranks of those who are sharpening iron!

[Josh]

Holdeman is a heretic church. They teach celestial flesh. That's a heresy and and old one.

You're welcome to your opinion. Menno Simons came up with the "celestial flesh" idea.

So I guess you are against Mennonites and Anabaptists then. Do you consider Eastern Orthodox to be a better church? I consider them supporting Putin's war to be much worse than heresy.

Let's get real about this issue instead of being like "Oh please accept this little teeny presence".

There are more Sikh temples, more Buddhists, and in FACT more witchcraft presence (wicca) than Anabaptists.

With your combative attitude (and writing off my denomination and all of its mission work), it is no wonder you feel so frustrated. Perhaps you should think more about where God has called you in the kingdom to spread the gospel instead of criticising everyone else who is trying hard to do it.

Are you sure you aren't Chris?

[Josh]

Ernie, I agree the laborers are few. That said, Biblically the laborers were few too and Christianity spread.

My group regularly sends out missionaries both abroad and to U.S./Canadian missions. We just had a couple get back from Miami, and we just bid farewell to two couples headed to different African nations.

Also the non-violence thing can't hold up to the Seventh Day Adventists. They've spread like crazy and we (Anabaptists) been around 3 times as long.

Well, you dismissed Holdemans offhand as "heretics". Do you have the same criticism for SDAs?

Throwing rocks or sharpening iron? We have not succeeded. Ananbaptists need hard admonishment for this. We are not strong. We are weak. Many CA churches even have 1st cousins marrying because there are so few converts. This won't end well.

I don't think that's a fair accusation. My denomination doesn't have first cousin marriages and hasn't in a long time.

As I told you earlier, my church is composed about 25% of people from non-ethnic lineages (perhaps not all parents but at least one parent, grandparent, or great-grandparent). Do you think that number is not high enough?

People from different backgrounds than "stable" ethnic Anabaptist backgrounds often need a lot of support. For example, we have several people who are receiving assistance from church (financial assistance, free tuition at church school, various spiritual help, material help, and so on). This is not meant as a criticism, but the ones that immediately spring to mind are the people in the 25%. Are you ready to run a church where your deacons and members have to spend a lot of time helping support people who don't have the benefit of the stability and financially sound behaviour that often accompanies ethnic Anabaptists? I am one of those 25% myself. So far I have not been much of a burden myself, but perhaps my children may be someday. That 25% number is going to go up and up as we have more children.

Fast growth is often bad. We had a church in California that was majority seekers. It had constant problems, and eventually the members there moved away to more stable congregations. It wasn't stable. It is one of the very few congregations in our denomination's history that has ever disbanded and sold off their building. Ethnic Anabaptists have a lot to teach us seekers about how to get along, forbear with one another, and avoid petty conflicts. (Most of the children of those seekers are off in different places now and are still members.)

Finally, your assertion that EOs are not ethnic churches is not grounded in reality. Virtually all EOs where I live are ethnic (our biggest presence being Greeks, but a few other ethnic groups too). I would know from attending their ethnic food festivals they do as fundraisers. They simply are not churches interested in adopting an evangelical model and trying to get lots of converts. There is 1 "Antiochian" church around here that has a membership of a dozen or so - and their membership is composed of disaffected people from other denominations. That's no different nor any better than the stuff Anabaptists do.

[Ken]

My list was not meant to be comprehensive, and there are churches in the DFW exurban metro area.

MCUSA churches? There are a couple of those.

The greater DFW metro area is the size of New Jersey and has a population north of 8 million. And yet I suspect you are including places like the Pilgrim church in Grandview which is maybe 40 miles south of downtown, completely outside the DFW metro area, and completely rural. https://maps.app.goo.gl/5VoB6ZkU2DKNnaVKA?g_st=ic