Why have the Anabaptists FAILED at Reaching the Masses

[mrbilliam]

This is where I disagree completely.

It's not the prosperity in America that keeps people from CA churches. It's the cultural inclusiveness and elitism. It's not the "extremism" as I said in my original post. Eastern Orthodox churches are very extreme and they have 330+MILLION members. They also have prosperity and their churches are all in cities in the USA.

With respect, have you spent much time visiting any EO churches in America? They are almost entirely ethnic and they are in cities because Eastern Orthodox people from other countries migrated to America and settled in cities.

What happens is CA churches are too busy picking each other's lives apart and being comfortable "living out their lives" in cornfields. While some churches seem to do better than others - based on our history, the Anabaptists have been pathetic on reaching the world with the gospel.

Your frequent criticism of "cornfields" reminds me of another poster here, Chris, who constantly complained that Anabaptists set up churches in "cornfields". My local church isn't in a cornfield - the street it's on in is a residential area, and it has houses on either side of it plus across the street.

I don't think other churches are "doing better". I don't consider the church Luther founded to be one worth emulating or following.

Anyway, you've complained a ton about the problem. I've pointed out plenty of cities with Anabaptist churches in them, if you're interested. (Including Dallas, I just don't have personal experience with whatever is going on there. I am picking up an Anabaptist relative of mine from the airport who is currently at the airport awaiting her flight.) Ernie pointed out the Church Planters' Forum which is trying to address your concerns.

So what is your solution? I don't think the answer is for us all to become Eastern Orthodox or Lutheran or adopt even more of the "evangelical" formula.

And keep in mind you're talking to a citydweller here.

Yes. I know exactly what EO churches are. And NO they are mainly NOT ethnic in the USA outside of Oriental Orthodox churches. Orthodox church in America is huge and they have all types.

Yes, many Anabaptists are complaining using the term "cornfields". This is not new.

The problem is people will defend anything they "like", rather than seeing the problem. Change doesn't happen until this problem is recognized. You know good and well that MOST Modererate Conservative Anabaptist churches are mostly populated by non-converts, but cradle Mennonites.

[Soloist]

I think pentecostals have increased popularity in today’s world while more traditional are decreasing in popularity.
I think this fits in line with the notion that people are “spiritual” and not religious. People want an experience, but they don’t want commitment and a lifestyle.

There are churches closing down all over the place while Pentecostal is a booming religion, which has basically zero expectations (outside of apostolics), other than a performance of speaking in tongues, which could be faked or maybe someone thinks they’re actually doing it when it’s just a performance. my wife’s father had a girlfriend who spoke in tongues, regularly attended Assembly of God, had her son in an elite private Christian school, and was anti-Harry Potter, but didn’t see an issue with cohabiting with her boyfriend or lying about getting a recruiting bonus for my wife joining the military.
Tongues is a side point, and if someone wants to argue over it, please take it somewhere else.

The idea that a church, even a Baptist church, might expect you to wear a suit and tie is too much for some people. The politics, the stance against abortion, even before these modern times… you hear it if you talk to people at college, the people on their way out.
I see a lot of people who identify as Christian, but don’t go to church. Don’t bother to belong anywhere.
More and more churches are closing down and the mega churches really are not church anymore, but they are Social Club with a performance.

40 years ago, you had people that were joining the Mennonites. There still was a difference in society from the CM or the regular protestant, not as dramatic as now though. We have the personal cell phone, The Internet and just basic societal expectations have changed dramatically. Nowadays, you get on a bus and rather than one guy listening to his boombox and everyone sort of getting irked, everyone’s on their phone.
Every spare minute is spent browsing something on a phone. Entertainment is the all consuming goal with boredom destroying any interest in anything formal like sitting in silence.

These of course are generalized and not necessarily applicable everywhere. It’s foolish to think we can compete with anything without a personal conviction.

[ken_sylvania]

What happens is CA churches are too busy picking each other's lives apart .......

Holdeman is a heretic church. They teach celestial flesh. That's a heresy and and old one.

By the way your "correction" only re-validates my point.

.....Let's get real about this issue instead of being like "Oh please accept this little teeny presence".

Would you be willing to share with us the methods you use and successes you have had in your evangelistic efforts so that we can learn from your methods?

[Soloist]

Before we continue arguing about why you are wrong, perhaps you can actually answer the question several of us have asked you.

What is your experience and what do you think needs to actually change with specifics. Your criticism of us picking each other apart is a little silly given that’s exactly what you are doing.

[mrbilliam]

I think pentecostals have increased popularity in today’s world while more traditional are decreasing in popularity.
I think this fits in line with the notion that people are “spiritual” and not religious. People want an experience, but they don’t want commitment and a lifestyle.

There are churches closing down all over the place while Pentecostal is a booming religion, which has basically zero expectations (outside of apostolics), other than a performance of speaking in tongues, which could be faked or maybe someone thinks they’re actually doing it when it’s just a performance. my wife’s father had a girlfriend who spoke in tongues, regularly attended Assembly of God, had her son in an elite private Christian school, and was anti-Harry Potter, but didn’t see an issue with cohabiting with her boyfriend or lying about getting a recruiting bonus for my wife joining the military.
Tongues is a side point, and if someone wants to argue over it, please take it somewhere else.

The idea that a church, even a Baptist church, might expect you to wear a suit and tie is too much for some people. The politics, the stance against abortion, even before these modern times… you hear it if you talk to people at college, the people on their way out.
I see a lot of people who identify as Christian, but don’t go to church. Don’t bother to belong anywhere.
More and more churches are closing down and the mega churches really are not church anymore, but they are Social Club with a performance.

40 years ago, you had people that were joining the Mennonites. There still was a difference in society from the CM or the regular protestant, not as dramatic as now though. We have the personal cell phone, The Internet and just basic societal expectations have changed dramatically. Nowadays, you get on a bus and rather than one guy listening to his boombox and everyone sort of getting irked, everyone’s on their phone.
Every spare minute is spent browsing something on a phone. Entertainment is the all consuming goal with boredom destroying any interest in anything formal like sitting in silence.

These of course are generalized and not necessarily applicable everywhere. It’s foolish to think we can compete with anything without a personal conviction.

In any case though, we have really failed as Anabaptists. The Radical Reformation is just about as old as the Protestant Reformation and yet barely have converted anybody. Most of that history did NOT involved modern tech, TV to abandon, Vehicles to avoid, or dress issues. So why didn't the churches reach cities in the 1880's ? Women dressed modestly then, often wore coverings, nobody had cars or TV/Radio, etc. It wasn't that radical.... Anabaptists were just inclusive and wanted their own circle of culture. We failed.

[RZehr]

Two things can be true at once;
Mennonites might be pathetic.
And Eastern Orthodox used violence and power of the state to persecute any Christian competition, in order to consolidate worldly power and influence.

Frankly, I am comfortable dismissing out of hand the Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, and Eastern Orthodox and Muslim numbers by simple virtue of their history of conversion by force. While our people were being slaughtered and harassed out of house and home and country.
As a nonresistance and separate Christian, I am not even playing that game, I am playing a whole different game. It’s like complaining that a basketball (them) team has scored 110 points in 48 minutes, while the soccer (us) team only scored 1 point in 90 minutes. Apples and Oranges.

So while Mennonites might in fact be pathetic, to compare us to these guys, is also pathetic.

[mrbilliam]

Before we continue arguing about why you are wrong, perhaps you can actually answer the question several of us have asked you.

What is your experience and what do you think needs to actually change with specifics. Your criticism of us picking each other apart is a little silly given that’s exactly what you are doing.

Brother Yoder's wife wore flip flops at Wal-Mart (Brother's meeting #13233) This issue was addressed.
Brother Marlin Miller's son Eli was put in the ban because he refused to part his hair down the middle.

Meanwhile:
The Baptists were knocking on doors, telling people about Jesus. The Baptists invited people to their church events from city communities. The Baptists did major charity works for their neighbors in major cities. The Baptists routinely had events to engage their community for outreach. "Come one come all for worship and potluck" works a lot better in Austin, TX than it does in Texline, TX. Check out the size of this church in Texline. You can invite the cactus and the entire neighborhood here! https://www.google.com/maps/@36.3164681 ... ?entry=ttu

[mrbilliam]

Two things can be true at once;
Mennonites might be pathetic.
And Eastern Orthodox used violence and power of the state to persecute any Christian competition, in order to consolidate worldly power and influence.

Frankly, I am comfortable dismissing out of hand the Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, and Eastern Orthodox and Muslim numbers by simple virtue of their history of conversion by force. While our people were being slaughtered and harassed out of house and home and country.
As a nonresistance and separate Christian, I am not even playing that game, I am playing a whole different game. It’s like complaining that a basketball (them) team has scored 110 points in 48 minutes, while the soccer (us) team only scored 1 point in 90 minutes. Apples and Oranges.

So while Mennonites might in fact be pathetic, to compare us to these guys, is also pathetic.

Mennos also collaborated with Nazi's and had violence in their beginning. Let's not forget about that.

Baptists and AOG churches have not been violent. Seventh Day Adventists are HUGE and growing fast and they are non-resistant.

[Soloist]

Mennos also collaborated with Nazi's and had violence in their beginning. Let's not forget about that.

Baptists and AOG churches have not been violent. Seventh Day Adventists are HUGE and growing fast and they are non-resistant.

No one is forgetting that.

Baptists are very patriotic and pro war. You must have grown up under a rock.
You seem to have an issue with heresy, but adventists are okay? Seriously?
I’m glad all these other churches are reaching people and making you happy, The very reasons that we don’t reach the same people are things that make me happy. The very things that most people dislike are the reasons I came.
Sure, there are some problems and maybe putting someone under the ban for how they part their hair is abuse, but you are just as bad.
Blanket condemnation is all you’ve said, arguments about every example and every situation that you seem to dismiss out of hand. You are no better than a leader who excommunicates for trivial things.

[RZehr]

Two things can be true at once;
Mennonites might be pathetic.
And Eastern Orthodox used violence and power of the state to persecute any Christian competition, in order to consolidate worldly power and influence.

Frankly, I am comfortable dismissing out of hand the Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, and Eastern Orthodox and Muslim numbers by simple virtue of their history of conversion by force. While our people were being slaughtered and harassed out of house and home and country.
As a nonresistance and separate Christian, I am not even playing that game, I am playing a whole different game. It’s like complaining that a basketball (them) team has scored 110 points in 48 minutes, while the soccer (us) team only scored 1 point in 90 minutes. Apples and Oranges.

So while Mennonites might in fact be pathetic, to compare us to these guys, is also pathetic.

Mennos also collaborated with Nazi's and had violence in their beginning. Let's not forget about that.

Baptists and AOG churches have not been violent. Seventh Day Adventists are HUGE and growing fast and they are non-resistant.

The Nazi Mennonites are irrelevant to this particular topic, as are the Munsterites, unless you are saying that these two groups were particularly keen on evangelism. I doubt these two groups cared much about Brother Yoder’s wife’s flip-flops, or Brother Marlin Miller’s son Eli’s hair part, for example.

I do personally find the Seventh Day’er comparison convincing and convicting, as I do the Jehovah Witnesses. Not that they are correct at all, but I do view them as voluntary and evangelistic. I don’t know why we can’t do what they do. What are their growth rates compared to ours? I expect they are lapping us, but didn’t look it up.

The Baptist? Easy believeism, child conversion, eternal security, makes it easy to become and remain Baptist, without dying to self, or sinning. But I will give them credit for evangelism efforts for sure.