Why have the Anabaptists FAILED at Reaching the Masses

[Nomad]

I agree with what Ken said as it pertains to the numbers. Not to many who don't grow up in our culture are attracted to the plain Anabaptist lifestyle. I know this is not always the case, but the ones from outside our Anabaptist culture who do attend our church tend to have a more colorful personality than the average person. Thats why I dont waste much effort in attempting to get seekers inside the Anabaptist churches and put more of my focus on having a relationship with the individual and planting a seed of the Gospel. If they chose to attend our church, then so be it. It's not "me" who gets credit to bringing them to salvation anyway. I'm just a mere tool.

Many plain Anabaptist tend to speak of outreach in terms of a "project" rather than "relationship". I think this could be why they get so many who are turned off by the conservative approach to outreach.

Maybe others have better advice for me so I'm open to hearing it!

[Pelerin]

Why have the Anabaptists failed at reaching the masses?

Mainline and Progressive Anabaptists have attempted reaching the masses. But their efforts have largely failed because of watering down the Gospel.

Old Order and Conservative Anabaptists have failed at this because they rarely attempt it.

I had a half written reply written over in the Turtles thread along these lines that I didn’t post because I didn’t have any conclusions.

[Sudsy]

This will probably get under some people's skin. I'm simply trying to speak truth here.

The Anabaptists started in 1525-1535. Yet there are BARELY any churches in any major city in America. In some of the largest metropolitan areas in the United States there is barely any representation of the Anabaptist faith.

The Lutherans started in 1517, and have churches all through cities, sometimes hundreds of them in large cities.
The Baptists started in 1638, and they have TONS of churches all through cities, the countryside, small towns, and large towns.
The Methodists started in 1787, and they have MANY churches all through cities, the countryside, small towns, and large towns.

Often through much of America, where you see a Baptist church there is a nearby Methodist church.

Presbyterian churches started in 1560, and they have a very decent presence all through America.'
Assemblies of God churches started in 1911. They have 3 million members today.
Seventh day Adventists started 160 years ago, and they have 23 million members today and churches all through America and the world.

Skipping Mennonite USA churches, I've heard worldwide any "head covering" type of Anabaptist church there are roughly 360,000 members.


Folks we stink. This is bad. This is heretical. On paper we preach Matthew 28's Great Commission but we do not practice it. In our hearts we'd rather pick each other's lives apart, create elitism, create cultural inclusiveness, keep outsiders at bay, and stay in "cornfields". Barely anybody joins because frankly the Anabaptists have made it impossible.

Excuses: "Well we do pretty extreme lifestyles". Blah, folks, the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox have VERY extreme lifestyles and worship and they have 330+ MILLION members and are world wide.

We are lost. We have decided on a culture of "saving our own lives", whereas Jesus said "we will lose it".

How does anybody remain an Anabaptist at this point...? We should be able to plainly see what happens.

1) Evangelism is to prisons/drug cases. While good... This actually creates a "Mennonite Trophy". These are people that have changed their lives and makes the church feel better. The Mennonite trophy feels accepted but is not really "juiced in" ever. It's trickery. "Look what our system did" is the thought process. Rarely is the solid in-tact family joining with 1st time husband, wife, and children.

2) Evangelism is also to very foreign countries. While good.... This actually creates a "rich white man came to my country" church. Food. Money. Hope.

We can't hold our own in USA cities. We are too scared. We are cowards.

If Paul was a Mennonite (shipwrecks, beatings, and death (in cities by the way)) we'd never have the New Testament or a church. In Menno circles we'd sit around quietly casting side-glances and judging a brother "making it happen" like Paul while shoving ham potatoes down our throats at fellowship meal. Don't forget the full plate of desserts and talking about monetary work with the bros while Jesus looks down - wondering why "God's people" are eating drinking and being merry rather than doing what he told them to do.

This is a club with a Christian wrapper.

Thank you for reading.

I was surprised at your Assemblies of God figure of 3 million members so I asked about it on the Internet and I see that number in the U.S. but it also says there are 86,143,293 Assemblies of God adherents worldwide. The number of Anabaptists in a similar query says in 2018, there were 2.13 million baptized Anabaptists in 86 countries worldwide'.

Another query says - 'Today, Anabaptists, who include Mennonites, the Amish, Hutterites, Church of the Brethren, and the Bruderhof, make up only about 0.1 percent of the 2.2 billion Christians worldwide.'

To your question about failing to reach the masses, my observation is that the ethnic challenge is a big reason but also something probably related is the understanding of what it means to evangelize. There is in some that their 'come out from among them' understanding keeps them from mingling with the lost as Jesus did.

The Anabaptists in our area that are having churches growing with non-Mennonite backgrounds are making special efforts to play down their Mennonite heritage and reach out to the lost of all ethnicities. Those in our area will change the church name and drop the 'Mennonite' as one of these steps. Pentecostals do this also as there are extremes in their group that they also don't want to be an immediate turn off from people coming to the Lord.

I believe that when a church really gets a vision for the lost they will overcome these obstacles. When they see others as Jesus did. When we get over our comforts of having everyone think and act the same and take on the challenges of reaching the lost with the Gospel and then going through all the spiritual growing that occurs with patience and other fruit of the Spirit as new converts grow in grace.

[Ken]

First of all, the US is not the world. The US is only about 4% of the world population. But trends in the US also mirror trends elsewhere.

Anabaptists have no problem with strong church growth outside of North America.

Within both the US and worldwide the fastest growing religious groups are Pentecostals and Muslims. Mormons are also still growing but more slowly than in decades past. So if you want to know what succeeds, look to the Pentecostals I guess.

“Growth” of Muslims is almost entirely from immigration. Islam is essentially an ethnic faith, much like Catholicism,
Orthodoxy, or what its detractors claim Anabaptism is.

But yes, Anabaptists are not even rounding error either in the US or worldwide. And what groups are growing are mostly doing so through birth rates not conversions. Which is not sustainable long-term. No population group anywhere on the planet maintains high population growth forever. When conservative Amish groups with large families are forced to shift away from farming their family sizes will rapidly fall like those of every other group.

You keep saying “forced to shift away from farming.” Is the need to grow food somehow going to go away?

My guess own take based on nothing more than observation is that Anabaptists are too "ethnic" to hold widespread appeal. The dress, language, food, customs, lack of diversity, and insularity just isn't very welcoming to outsiders. A few "seeker" types might find it appealing. But there isn't widespread appeal just like there isn't widespread appeal for any other highly-ethnic denomination like the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church. Or the Maronite Christians in Lebanon. For example, there are long detailed instructions on how to be a "seeker" in a CA church published here on this forum and elsewhere. It shouldn't be that difficult and certainly wasn't that difficult during Biblical times.

Despite these claims my own church has no problems with quality growth in places like, well, Ethiopia.

Is the percentage of Anabaptists worldwide higher or lower than it is in North America? I honestly don't know. It certainly isn't meaningful in Latin America outside of a few traditional colonies. That's the only part of the world I'm familiar with.

As for Islam, it is one of the fastest growing religions worldwide. So one can't chalk that up to immigration. The total number of Muslims on planet earth is increasing faster than anything else than perhaps Pentecostalism.

Within the US, most of the best farmland is getting consolidated by corporate farms and deep pocketed investors like sovereign wealth funds and private equity. Can Amish farmers compete with the likes of Bill Gates, Arab sovereign wealth funds, Chinese investors and Wall Street Hedge Funds? I suspect not. So if Amish communities are going to continue expanding they will need to diversify into other areas of the economy. And when they do that large families become a liability and expense rather than an advantage. The same exact pattern can be seen everywhere in history and everywhere else in the world where rural people become more urbanized. My larger point is that Amish are not expanding due to evangelism. But by high birth rates. Which is a uniquely rural thing and won't be sustainable if they become suburbanized.

Finally, as for the success of the Holdeman Church expanding worldwide? Your church web site says you have 26,248 members worldwide including a whopping 22 people in Ethiopia which is a country of about 125 million. https://churchofgodinchristmennonite.net/where-we-are/ Which makes my point rather than refutes it.

[Soloist]

I think the Mennonites wanting to reach the lost need to step back and realize that despite living in the same country, they effectively have a country within a country. Failure to adapt for modern variance in communication, job availability (ie how a sermon is targeted), schedule availability, understanding of the unspoken communication norms…
Mennonites have an assumption that the only differences between themselves and their neighbors are religious choices and dress. It’s much more comprehensive and it’s not the standards or the teaching causing problems. It’s the closed culture that has too many communication rules that are unknown even by the Mennonites.

They are world’s apart on understanding of finances, modern internet use, dating culture, the list goes on and on.
The answer isn’t to throw away culture, but to actually remember it and deal with your own personal bias that misleads.
An example, we and other seekers have learned to ask cost whenever someone offers us something, and it’s something that many seekers have been caught offguard with because we assume that it’s free unless someone offers to sell it

[mrbilliam]

This will probably get under some people's skin. I'm simply trying to speak truth here.

The Anabaptists started in 1525-1535. Yet there are BARELY any churches in any major city in America. In some of the largest metropolitan areas in the United States there is barely any representation of the Anabaptist faith.

Metropolitan areas in America are full of churn (and full of closed churches). I grew up in cities, and one of the things I remember is the large, impressive church buildings that either had very low attendance (and this was back in the 1980s and 1990s), or else were closed.

The Lutherans started in 1517, and have churches all through cities, sometimes hundreds of them in large cities.
The Baptists started in 1638, and they have TONS of churches all through cities, the countryside, small towns, and large towns.
The Methodists started in 1787, and they have MANY churches all through cities, the countryside, small towns, and large towns.

The Methodist churches around here have struggling attendance - if they aren't already closed. The same goes for Lutheran churches. The most common sight is a closed building. A few of them struggle to survive by running preschools, pancake breakfasts, and Swiss steak suppers.

The ones in the countryside and small towns usually aren't closed yet. In the larger cities the magnificent old cathedral style buildings are just closed.

Often through much of America, where you see a Baptist church there is a nearby Methodist church.

Presbyterian churches started in 1560, and they have a very decent presence all through America.'
Assemblies of God churches started in 1911. They have 3 million members today.
Seventh day Adventists started 160 years ago, and they have 23 million members today and churches all through America and the world.

Skipping Mennonite USA churches, I've heard worldwide any "head covering" type of Anabaptist church there are roughly 360,000 members.

300,000 members would be the population of the Amish in North America. Overall Anabaptist population in North America is estimated to be about 1 million (including youth and children who will likely become members someday).

Folks we stink. This is bad. This is heretical. On paper we preach Matthew 28's Great Commission but we do not practice it. In our hearts we'd rather pick each other's lives apart, create elitism, create cultural inclusiveness, keep outsiders at bay, and stay in "cornfields". Barely anybody joins because frankly the Anabaptists have made it impossible.

I think it's fine to be in "cornfields". Life in large cities is very transitional with people frequently moving and frequently moving out. It is very dependent on the car, so it doesn't work for the largest Anabaptist group - Amish people. Property is insanely expensive.

There is 1 Anabaptist group that does settle in cities, Apostolic Christians. They are often faced with the people in their church all drive an hour from different directions to get to church. This makes things like operating schools or doing much at church outside of Sundays and maybe Wednesday nights difficult.

Excuses: "Well we do pretty extreme lifestyles". Blah, folks, the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox have VERY extreme lifestyles and worship and they have 330+ MILLION members and are world wide.

Eastern Orthodox are also an essentially ethnic faith, with half of those members being Russians for whom it is more a mark of nationalism or ethnic identity than faith. In Serbia, a lot of people identify as "Eastern Orthodox" and "atheist" at the same time. Somewhere I read that average attendance at Serbian EO churches is 2 per service. That's not a thriving church.

I would not say that EOs have extreme lifestyles. The ones I have worked with, I barely noticed anything about their lifestyle at all - the only way you could tell they were EO was the little icon of some saint or something at the cash register at the bar/nightclub they owned.

How does anybody remain an Anabaptist at this point...? We should be able to plainly see what happens.

That's an easy answer - Anabaptists remain Anabaptists, except in the transitional Anabaptist churches. (Unfortunately this includes most of the Beachy churches.)

1) Evangelism is to prisons/drug cases. While good... This actually creates a "Mennonite Trophy". These are people that have changed their lives and makes the church feel better. The Mennonite trophy feels accepted but is not really "juiced in" ever. It's trickery. "Look what our system did" is the thought process. Rarely is the solid in-tact family joining with 1st time husband, wife, and children.

What's wrong with lost and broken people deciding to give their lives to Christ and join a good church?

2) Evangelism is also to very foreign countries. While good.... This actually creates a "rich white man came to my country" church. Food. Money. Hope.

My own denomination's churches have indigenous leadership in Nigeria, Brazil, Haiti (good thing - it's virtually impossible to go there right now), Malawi, Togo, and other places. It is simply a choice whether or not to do this.

We can't hold our own in USA cities. We are too scared. We are cowards.

We have a stable church in NYC. Nearly every seeker who joins ends up moving somewhere else. The moment they start travelling to visit other congregations, they find out how low the cost of housing is and how good quality of life can be in the rural areas. Then they go back to NYC and see what a rat race it is. Often, they are offered a job out in the rural areas that's better than the job they have in NYC.

Would you expect such seekers to stay in NYC? Most of them are immigrants, too. It's not like they are tied down to NYC because of family or ancestral ties or something.

If Paul was a Mennonite (shipwrecks, beatings, and death (in cities by the way)) we'd never have the New Testament or a church. In Menno circles we'd sit around quietly casting side-glances and judging a brother "making it happen" like Paul while shoving ham potatoes down our throats at fellowship meal. Don't forget the full plate of desserts and talking about monetary work with the bros while Jesus looks down - wondering why "God's people" are eating drinking and being merry rather than doing what he told them to do.

This is a club with a Christian wrapper.

Thank you for reading.

I would encourage you to look into what other Mennonite/Anabaptist groups with a more biblical rule of life are doing. I, too, felt very discouraged when I was in a more liberal church. The Beachy mission church I was part of in Australia has gone extinct and doesn't even exist anymore. Nowadays I feel like I am in a thriving church that has good mission programs, including domestic missions. A lot of our missionaries simply go to a city.

The challenge remains that nearly every seeker who is interested... ends up moving out of the city... myself included!

There's a lot here. Let me respond with one thing you wrote for now.

"A" stable church in NYC.

A - A - A

A Stable church. In all of NYC, the greater surrounding area has 20 MILLION people in the metropolitan area and you want to be happy about "A stable church". My friend, this is pathetic.

Go count the Lutheran, Catholic, Orthodox, Methodist, and Baptist churches... etc. All other protestant and catholics have tons of churches there.

They have seminaries there. Multitudes of churches.

Anabaptists have barely squat. Because the inclusiveness and cornfield culture of saving your own life. This is not biblical and it is about time we start addressing and correcting this.

[mrbilliam]

This will probably get under some people's skin. I'm simply trying to speak truth here.

The Anabaptists started in 1525-1535. Yet there are BARELY any churches in any major city in America. In some of the largest metropolitan areas in the United States there is barely any representation of the Anabaptist faith.

The Lutherans started in 1517, and have churches all through cities, sometimes hundreds of them in large cities.
The Baptists started in 1638, and they have TONS of churches all through cities, the countryside, small towns, and large towns.
The Methodists started in 1787, and they have MANY churches all through cities, the countryside, small towns, and large towns.

Often through much of America, where you see a Baptist church there is a nearby Methodist church.

Presbyterian churches started in 1560, and they have a very decent presence all through America.'
Assemblies of God churches started in 1911. They have 3 million members today.
Seventh day Adventists started 160 years ago, and they have 23 million members today and churches all through America and the world.

Skipping Mennonite USA churches, I've heard worldwide any "head covering" type of Anabaptist church there are roughly 360,000 members.


Folks we stink. This is bad. This is heretical. On paper we preach Matthew 28's Great Commission but we do not practice it. In our hearts we'd rather pick each other's lives apart, create elitism, create cultural inclusiveness, keep outsiders at bay, and stay in "cornfields". Barely anybody joins because frankly the Anabaptists have made it impossible.

Excuses: "Well we do pretty extreme lifestyles". Blah, folks, the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox have VERY extreme lifestyles and worship and they have 330+ MILLION members and are world wide.

We are lost. We have decided on a culture of "saving our own lives", whereas Jesus said "we will lose it".

How does anybody remain an Anabaptist at this point...? We should be able to plainly see what happens.

1) Evangelism is to prisons/drug cases. While good... This actually creates a "Mennonite Trophy". These are people that have changed their lives and makes the church feel better. The Mennonite trophy feels accepted but is not really "juiced in" ever. It's trickery. "Look what our system did" is the thought process. Rarely is the solid in-tact family joining with 1st time husband, wife, and children.

2) Evangelism is also to very foreign countries. While good.... This actually creates a "rich white man came to my country" church. Food. Money. Hope.

We can't hold our own in USA cities. We are too scared. We are cowards.

If Paul was a Mennonite (shipwrecks, beatings, and death (in cities by the way)) we'd never have the New Testament or a church. In Menno circles we'd sit around quietly casting side-glances and judging a brother "making it happen" like Paul while shoving ham potatoes down our throats at fellowship meal. Don't forget the full plate of desserts and talking about monetary work with the bros while Jesus looks down - wondering why "God's people" are eating drinking and being merry rather than doing what he told them to do.

This is a club with a Christian wrapper.

Thank you for reading.

I don't disagree that we have our share of problems as it relates to outreach and church-planting, but one thing I've learned over the years is that hand-wringing alone doesn't solve these problems. What I have found meaningful, is to get involved myself in outreach, mentoring and being involved in Kingdom work. Doing so, I've found, has the tendency to lessen ones focus on the big group problems, which most denominations seem to have, and focuses on what we are called to be and do as a follower of Jesus. It becomes more of a response to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles rather than a reaction to what's wrong with our way of doing things as CA's.

If a church is in heresy in practice, it should be called out. This is why the Anabaptist faith has not spread. It does matter what others are doing. The BIble teaches us to sharpen iron. Paul admonished the church in Corinth badly. We need admonishment.

[mrbilliam]

This morning, i first read this topic, which i believe was written with a sincere and loving heart.
The coincidence of then reading the very next topic still has my head spinning:

Japan
viewtopic.php?t=6965
OP:

Below is something I just wrote for my own site that I think may be of interest here:

I lived in Japan in the 1990s. My wife went back 10 years ago and said that things had decayed. I just visited Japan again with my wife. I think the "decay" is mostly superficial and in fact Japan is remarkably resilient against modern culture. Japan copies styles but remains Japanese underneath. So Japan copying modern western styles doesn't mean much. Japanese behavior is still distinctly Japanese. Japan remains a high-trust ethnocentric culture that resists modern values.

I can speculate on how they managed this. First, they are a high-tech culture with a distinct language. This means that the internet content that they consume is mostly their own. And this protects them from the worst source of cultural infection, namely modern culture on the internet. In addition, they have a collectivist culture which prevents individuals from going in new directions, so this helps to preserve their culture. And they have limited immigration.

I know of 3 groups that effectively resist modern culture: Japan, traditional Anabaptists, and Orthodox Jews. I think Japan and the Anabaptists have a lot in common in their strategies. The Anabaptists avoid internet infection by limiting internet use. The Anabaptists are also collectivist, and have limited immigration (into their groups). Orthodox Jews also limit internet use and have limited immigration, but they are not collectivist. Instead of collectivism, Jews view outsiders (goyim) as subhumans. This seems to work as effectively as collectivism in avoiding outside cultural influence.

For individuals who can't tolerate modern culture, I suggest either moving to Japan or moving to an Anabaptist area.

GaryK to mrbilliam:
I don't disagree that we have our share of problems as it relates to outreach and church-planting, but one thing I've learned over the years is that hand-wringing alone doesn't solve these problems. What I have found meaningful, is to get involved myself in outreach, mentoring and being involved in Kingdom work. Doing so, I've found, has the tendency to lessen ones focus on the big group problems, which most denominations seem to have, and focuses on what we are called to be and do as a follower of Jesus.

It becomes more of a response to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles rather than a reaction to what's wrong with our way of doing things as CA's.

GaryK and others on this forum model living faith IRL, IRT.
God bless and direct each one of us.

Yes it's scary The Christian church is not about a culture or lifestyle. It's about serving Jesus Christ as a submissive bride.

[mrbilliam]

In addition to what Gary said,

I recommend that people who believe they are called of God to do church planting in cities, begin pursuing such a path, being sensitive to how and where God may direct or redirect them.

The first step is to develop the kind of character that the NT outlines for elders and deacons. While doing that, people can begin studying the demographics of the area that they want to settle in and begin looking for team members. I've seen over and over that people of character who are willing to wait on God, will be sent by churches that are not known for doing this sort of thing. When people are being led of the Spirit, churches somehow sense this. Even though they would like to keep people with them in their rural settings, they are willing to bless people to leave them.
One way to prepare is to attend the Church Planters Forum that is held in Pennsylvania each year in June. We had about 160 people show up this year.
There are many recordings, documents and books listed at our website that can help a person prepare as well. https://churchplantersforum.org/

Yesterday a family from a rural setting moved to our area to work with us in starting a church here in our city. The deacon's wife who provided the meal at the new house, kept telling us that she could not be friends with us yesterday because we were taking such a lovely family away from their church. She was saying it would take her some time until she could forgive us. (She was saying all of this in good humor, but serious at the same time. Nobody likes to see charactered people leaving the church.) This family had intended to move to Utah, but those doors closed. They had interest in moving to a city in Rhode Island, but those doors closed also. So they resigned themselves to staying where they were for the time being and serve their church. It was about a year later that we asked them to join us in church planting.
 
If a personal vision is truly of the Lord, nothing can stop it.
God's will, done in God's way, and according to God's timing, will never lack God's blessing.

Ernie in respect and I do respect you, this carries on the propaganda of Mennonite brainwashing. (we are pretty much all victims)

"that people who believe they are called to church planting..."

The Great Commission of Jesus is for ALL people, all Christians everywhere. Jesus declared all authority in Heaven and on Earth was given to him. The very first thing he said was "NOW GO ye therefore..."

Charles Spurgeon said “Every Christian is either a missionary or an impostor”.

We are all missionaries. Saying "those who are called to church planting" is exactly why the pinouts on churchindex.org are nationally pathetic. You'd see tens of thousands of Baptist, Lutheran, and Methodist pins. This is because these churches know what the commission is.

This is a culturally infused heresy to not go, and pick each other apart.

[mrbilliam]

First of all, the US is not the world. The US is only about 4% of the world population. But trends in the US also mirror trends elsewhere.

Anabaptists have no problem with strong church growth outside of North America.

Within both the US and worldwide the fastest growing religious groups are Pentecostals and Muslims. Mormons are also still growing but more slowly than in decades past. So if you want to know what succeeds, look to the Pentecostals I guess.

“Growth” of Muslims is almost entirely from immigration. Islam is essentially an ethnic faith, much like Catholicism,
Orthodoxy, or what its detractors claim Anabaptism is.

But yes, Anabaptists are not even rounding error either in the US or worldwide. And what groups are growing are mostly doing so through birth rates not conversions. Which is not sustainable long-term. No population group anywhere on the planet maintains high population growth forever. When conservative Amish groups with large families are forced to shift away from farming their family sizes will rapidly fall like those of every other group.

You keep saying “forced to shift away from farming.” Is the need to grow food somehow going to go away?

My guess own take based on nothing more than observation is that Anabaptists are too "ethnic" to hold widespread appeal. The dress, language, food, customs, lack of diversity, and insularity just isn't very welcoming to outsiders. A few "seeker" types might find it appealing. But there isn't widespread appeal just like there isn't widespread appeal for any other highly-ethnic denomination like the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church. Or the Maronite Christians in Lebanon. For example, there are long detailed instructions on how to be a "seeker" in a CA church published here on this forum and elsewhere. It shouldn't be that difficult and certainly wasn't that difficult during Biblical times.

Despite these claims my own church has no problems with quality growth in places like, well, Ethiopia.

I like to take one issue at a time as the formatting gets weird.

Let's start with this.

"Anabaptists have no problem with strong church growth outside of North America."

Yes. They go into countries like Liberia. They bring big rich American dollars. They start churches using the strong dollar value based on being able to feed people physical food. The Liberians flock to them because they first want $ and their money. Sure they can make some converts. I'm also not knocking the entirety of foreign missions. I would say nothing if we Anabaptists were all in USA CITIES AND foreign missions. But we just go to foreign missions. There is still elitism. There is still the cultural thing. Volunteers then "serve time on the mission field" and then often return home to "menno way".

USA cities though, you pretty much can't bribe people with food - thus a major attractive card is gone. Apologetically most Anabaptists don't even know their founders or their theology. They know the culture and rules of their own church. They can't hold their own apologetics either in most cases when talking with other Christian denominations. They fail at USA cities because they have no bribes to offer. They are too scared to allow the church to impact the world.....

Because safety only exists when those people look like us and follow the rules.

Interesting how Bible school only allows "church members" to attend isn't it? Keep the system going...