Discussion about the Holocaust

[RZehr]

If “Mother Nature” is responsible for miscarriage deaths, she is also responsible for the millions who die every year of natural causes, old age, etc. These are the correct categories that miscarriages share. The only miscarriage that is in the same category as abortions, is the miscarriage of justice.

[Josh]

Ken,

I consider the Holocaust of 6 million people including millions of Jews and Polish to be different than, say, 6 million people who died of old age, heart attacks, etc.

[Heirbyadoption]

What stands out about the German/Nazi genocide over other genocides was the systematic and industrial nature of it. With the death camps like Auschwitz, the Nazis built “death factories” whose purpose was to eradicate Jews and other “undesirables” as quickly and efficiently as possible. What also stands out are the extensive records that the Germans kept which document the genocide.

Genocide has always existed, but what the Nazis did took it to a higher level that was (and still is) shocking.

What stands about the American abortion holocaust is the systematic and industrial nature of it.

Why are you bringing abortion into this discussion? And in any event, if the death of a fetus or fertilized embryo is genocide then mother nature has done more genocide than all causes combined and it isn't even close. The rate of miscarriage worldwide is estimated at about 40% of which up to half happen before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Since about 140 million babies are born worldwide every year a little math tells us that about 93 million are aborted by mother nature every year. That is a whole lot of genocide. Do those 93 million deaths of human babies concern you as well?

Ken, RZehr raises a worthy point, I think. "Genocide" is usually defined as a voluntary/deliberate killing, and while I'm similarly not sure whether Josh really needed to bring abortion into this particular discussion or not, perhaps it would lend to a more honest and effective discussion (in this post and/or elsewhere) to not imply some sort of sentient identity reference (and hence, morality and choice) onto "mother nature", especially in comparison to those sentient/moral individuals who voluntarily terminate(d) lives (whether justified in doing so or not). Just a thought.

[Ken]

What stands about the American abortion holocaust is the systematic and industrial nature of it.

Why are you bringing abortion into this discussion? And in any event, if the death of a fetus or fertilized embryo is genocide then mother nature has done more genocide than all causes combined and it isn't even close. The rate of miscarriage worldwide is estimated at about 40% of which up to half happen before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Since about 140 million babies are born worldwide every year a little math tells us that about 93 million are aborted by mother nature every year. That is a whole lot of genocide. Do those 93 million deaths of human babies concern you as well?

Ken, RZehr raises a worthy point, I think. "Genocide" is usually defined as a voluntary/deliberate killing, and while I'm similarly not sure whether Josh really needed to bring abortion into this particular discussion or not, perhaps it would lend to a more honest and effective discussion (in this post and/or elsewhere) to not imply some sort of sentient identity reference (and hence, morality and choice) onto "mother nature", especially in comparison to those sentient/moral individuals who voluntarily terminate(d) lives (whether justified in doing so or not). Just a thought.

I guess that depends on whether you think reproduction is simply a natural event or if you think a sentient God has any active role in it. Is it design that about 40% of fertilized embryos are naturally aborted through miscarriage? Or is that just the natural result of human evolution?

[Heirbyadoption]

Why are you bringing abortion into this discussion? And in any event, if the death of a fetus or fertilized embryo is genocide then mother nature has done more genocide than all causes combined and it isn't even close. The rate of miscarriage worldwide is estimated at about 40% of which up to half happen before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Since about 140 million babies are born worldwide every year a little math tells us that about 93 million are aborted by mother nature every year. That is a whole lot of genocide. Do those 93 million deaths of human babies concern you as well?

Ken, RZehr raises a worthy point, I think. "Genocide" is usually defined as a voluntary/deliberate killing, and while I'm similarly not sure whether Josh really needed to bring abortion into this particular discussion or not, perhaps it would lend to a more honest and effective discussion (in this post and/or elsewhere) to not imply some sort of sentient identity reference (and hence, morality and choice) onto "mother nature", especially in comparison to those sentient/moral individuals who voluntarily terminate(d) lives (whether justified in doing so or not). Just a thought.

I guess that depends on whether you think reproduction is simply a natural event or if you think a sentient God has any active role in it. Is it design that about 40% of fertilized embryos are naturally aborted through miscarriage? Or is that just the natural result of human evolution?

Well, if you DON'T believe that a sentient God causes reproduction and miscarriages (which I have no problem agreeing with as a general rule, except for the question of the instilling of consciousness, soul, etc) , then I'm just unclear why you would attempt to generalize and compare miscarriages caused by a natural process, microevolution, or whatever with voluntarily induced abortions or holocausts murders or anything else... Seems awfully apples versus oranges (or maybe apples and cucumbers), hence my thought on the voluntary nature of genocide. The difference between between natural process and voluntary actions is significant, I believe. But I apologize for rabbit trailing, it just struck me as I was reading through the thread. You and Josh can go back at it now if you'd like.

[MaxPC]

If “Mother Nature” is responsible for miscarriage deaths, she is also responsible for the millions who die every year of natural causes, old age, etc. These are the correct categories that miscarriages share. The only miscarriage that is in the same category as abortions, is the miscarriage of justice.

Amen. Spot on.

[Ken]

Ken, RZehr raises a worthy point, I think. "Genocide" is usually defined as a voluntary/deliberate killing, and while I'm similarly not sure whether Josh really needed to bring abortion into this particular discussion or not, perhaps it would lend to a more honest and effective discussion (in this post and/or elsewhere) to not imply some sort of sentient identity reference (and hence, morality and choice) onto "mother nature", especially in comparison to those sentient/moral individuals who voluntarily terminate(d) lives (whether justified in doing so or not). Just a thought.

I guess that depends on whether you think reproduction is simply a natural event or if you think a sentient God has any active role in it. Is it design that about 40% of fertilized embryos are naturally aborted through miscarriage? Or is that just the natural result of human evolution?

Well, if you DON'T believe that a sentient God causes reproduction and miscarriages (which I have no problem agreeing with as a general rule, except for the question of the instilling of consciousness, soul, etc) , then I'm just unclear why you would attempt to generalize and compare miscarriages caused by a natural process, microevolution, or whatever with voluntarily induced abortions or holocausts murders or anything else... Seems awfully apples versus oranges (or maybe apples and cucumbers), hence my thought on the voluntary nature of genocide. The difference between between natural process and voluntary actions is significant, I believe. But I apologize for rabbit trailing, it just struck me as I was reading through the thread. You and Josh can go back at it now if you'd like.

I don’t know the answers to any of these questions and neither do any of us. But if you believe that each fertilized embryo is a human with a soul, and that God is actively guiding this process. Then the inevitable conclusion is that God is aborting and killing around 40% of all humanity. Do I personally believe that? No. But it is the logical end point of the religious position that life begins at conception. Which is also a belief that I don’t personally share. If you believe that all abortion is murder up to and including fertilized embryos then that inevitably leads to the conclusion that God is the biggest abortionist of all. And that is not a belief that I share. Which is why I don’t think the subject of abortion really belongs in a discussion of the holocaust.

[RZehr]

I don’t know the answers to any of these questions and neither do any of us. But if you believe that each fertilized embryo is a human with a soul, and that God is actively guiding this process. Then the inevitable conclusion is that God is aborting and killing around 40% of all humanity. Do I personally believe that? No. But it is the logical end point of the religious position that life begins at conception. Which is also a belief that I don’t personally share. If you believe that all abortion is murder up to and including fertilized embryos then that inevitably leads to the conclusion that God is the biggest abortionist of all. And that is not a belief that I share. Which is why I don’t think the subject of abortion really belongs in a discussion of the holocaust.

Actually, the conclusion is that God is killing around 100% of all humanity, since everyone dies eventually. Some die in the womb, some die as 100 year olds. But they all die. I suppose we could reduce the 100% by what every percentage man murders in the womb and outside of the womb.

[Ken]

I don’t know the answers to any of these questions and neither do any of us. But if you believe that each fertilized embryo is a human with a soul, and that God is actively guiding this process. Then the inevitable conclusion is that God is aborting and killing around 40% of all humanity. Do I personally believe that? No. But it is the logical end point of the religious position that life begins at conception. Which is also a belief that I don’t personally share. If you believe that all abortion is murder up to and including fertilized embryos then that inevitably leads to the conclusion that God is the biggest abortionist of all. And that is not a belief that I share. Which is why I don’t think the subject of abortion really belongs in a discussion of the holocaust.

Actually, the conclusion is that God is killing around 100% of all humanity, since everyone dies eventually. Some die in the womb, some die as 100 year olds. But they all die. I suppose we could reduce the 100% by what every percentage man murders in the womb and outside of the womb.

Right. And if you believe that God is manipulating everything then God is also responsible for the Jewish Holocaust as well. Since he made the Nazis do it. They were just following his plan or some such.

That’s why I don’t personally believe that sort of predestination.

[RZehr]

I don’t know the answers to any of these questions and neither do any of us. But if you believe that each fertilized embryo is a human with a soul, and that God is actively guiding this process. Then the inevitable conclusion is that God is aborting and killing around 40% of all humanity. Do I personally believe that? No. But it is the logical end point of the religious position that life begins at conception. Which is also a belief that I don’t personally share. If you believe that all abortion is murder up to and including fertilized embryos then that inevitably leads to the conclusion that God is the biggest abortionist of all. And that is not a belief that I share. Which is why I don’t think the subject of abortion really belongs in a discussion of the holocaust.

Actually, the conclusion is that God is killing around 100% of all humanity, since everyone dies eventually. Some die in the womb, some die as 100 year olds. But they all die. I suppose we could reduce the 100% by what every percentage man murders in the womb and outside of the womb.

Right. And if you believe that God is manipulating everything then God is also responsible for the Jewish Holocaust as well. Since he made the Nazis do it. They were just following his plan or some such.

That’s why I don’t personally believe that sort of predestination.

What do you mean, right? You then proceed to state something different than what I said. Why don’t you take another go at what I wrote, and see if you can make out how my statement might best apply to Nazis?

“ I suppose we could reduce the 100% by what every percentage man murders in the womb and outside of the womb.”