Discussion about the Holocaust

[JohnHurt]

"it was listed" - who listed it that way? Could you please reveal your sources?

There was a metal plaque at the Auschwitz visitor center that had been there since the Soviet Union days. The USSR plaque was still there in 1990 with 4 million deaths listed, and the Holocaust revisionists made a big deal out of it when the new government lowered the number to 1 million.

So I got the number wrong. My apology.

Thanks. So I think we agree on the numbers, then.

The point is that the number changed. Reality does not change. If they can count 4 million one time, and 1 the next time, they need to show how they came up with their numbers.

The problem we have now - is not how many, but that whatever number is presented - this new number is now "sacred" and must be correct.

It is like in 1984 with O'Brian holding up 4 fingers and asking Winston Smith how many fingers he sees, and then being shocked for giving the correct answer. It does not matter how many fingers are being held up, the reality is whatever the Party says it is.

And the original plaque with 4 million has been thrown down Winston's Smith's memory hole. So, like Winston Smith said "We have always been at war with Eurasia." How could it be any different?

So yes, we agree that the number is 1 million.

The Soviet Union also presented lampshades made out of human skin, and soap made out of the fat of dead Jews. Those artifacts are no longer available for DNA testing, for some reason. But if I see a pattern of behavior about how the USSR has reported the Holocaust, then I am the one blamed. So there is no point in discussing it.

One of these claims is true on a small scale. The other is false. There were some lampshades and other artifacts made from human skin, particularly with tattoos. And especially at Buchenwald. For instance:

https://www.buchenwald.de/en/geschichte ... ueberreste
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation ... 01900.html

So out of the two items, they only lied one time. So it is nice to know that the people that lied once are not lying this time.

Their proof they provide is that the lampshades "look" like human skin.

The real proof would be to find a "disinterested 3rd party", if that even is possible today, and this 3rd party would be provided a sample from the lampshade.

The neutral 3rd party would take the sample to a crime lab, and ask that the DNA be extracted and matched to find the closest relative.

You would think they would want to know the person was, as the person's family and children could receive compensation for this horrible act.

It would also add more proof for what happened.

But DNA testing of this lampshade will never happen, "out of respect for the dead" or some other reason.

I understand that the Soviets brought out the lampshade and the soap only one time, and neither has been seen since.

Lamps made from goat skins were popular in the 1930's.

The stories of soap made from human fat seem to be based on propaganda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made ... an_corpses
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-soap-myth

Aaron Breitbart, a senior researcher at the Simon Wiesenthal Center, agreed that the evidence is thin. “The leading scholars of the Holocaust are of the opinion that the Nazis did not make soap,” he says. “It was a cruel rumor at the camps.”

Andrew Hollinger, a spokesman at the USHMM department of media relations, provided a document written by the museum’s historian that concludes: “Available documentary evidence and eyewitness accounts have been unable to corroborate in a conclusive manner reports that the National Socialists and their collaborators used human fat from their victims in the manufacture of soap.” It goes on to say: “rumors that Germans made soap from human remains originated in French propaganda from the First World War.”

Breitbart explains why it is that the scholars must be so careful. “The importance is not to give the Holocaust deniers any opportunity,” he says. “The view of the Holocaust revisionists is, if you can prove something is wrong, then everything is wrong. It gives them an opportunity to cast doubt on the general historical veracity of the Holocaust.”

The phrase "it was a cruel rumor at the camps" makes sense to me. I can easily imagine Nazis telling Jews that the only soap available to them was made from human bodies. Cruelty was intentional at these camps.

This is also relevant: The view of the Holocaust revisionists is, if you can prove something is wrong, then everything is wrong. It gives them an opportunity to cast doubt on the general historical veracity of the Holocaust.” We see this in conspiracy theories all the time. It doesn't matter how often the conspiracy theorist is wrong, they just change the subject and go off on something else. But if an authority is wrong about even one thing, my goodness, everything they have ever said is now wrong. Not just wrong, but an attempt to deceive. And "they" are doing it because they want to do something awful to "us".

So, even the fact that the Soviets made up this bogus bar of soap, and presented it as being made from the fat of dead Jews, even this ridiculous presentation of a bogus bar of soap is also the fault of the Nazis, as it was obviously a "cruel rumor at the camps." So the Nazis did it after all, not the Soviets. It really was the Nazi's fault, as they made up the idea in the first place, and the nice Soviets just followed through.

That is absurd.

The truth is somewhere in the middle of all of this.

No one should deny that Jews died in the camps, and at the same time, no one should let themselves believe that dead people were boiled down for their fat to make soap, or had their skin peeled off to make someone's lampshade. There need to be a little more proof than what someone said in an article. Like hard physical evidence.

I oppose violence, military aggression, putting people in camps, and the idea of a chosen or superior race that kills others based on their race. For this reason, I oppose what Nazi Germany did, and what the modern State of Israel does.

The Holocaust is the founding myth of the State of Israel. It is the justification for all of the crimes committed by the Zionists. Many Jews are also opposed to Zionism, like the "American Council for Judaism." Zionism is an invention of Herzl in the 1890's. Judaism is cultural.

I keep the Torah, but not the Talmud. I keep the religion of Christ, without the additions of Paul and the Catholic church. So I am much closer to being sympathetic to the Karaite Jews and others that keep God's Commandments, but lack the knowledge of Christ.

I am not anti-Jewish, but I am against an "emphasis" if not "exaggeration" that provides cover for other crimes.

So I oppose how the Holocaust has been used to cover up the crimes of the Allies, like the fire bombing of Dresden, the murder of Germans in the Rhine Meadows camps, that 95,000 Germans were captured at Stalingrad and only 5,000 returned, and many others. But the worst part is what is happening right now, how the Holocaust is being used is for justification of the on-going war against the people of Palestine, based on something that happened in Germany 80 years ago.

The problem is - how to verify history - from the artifacts of history.

For example, your evidence of a letter to Hans Kammler stating that 4,700 people can be cremated a day - why wasn't it typed on a proper letterhead? It is just typed on a blank sheet of paper.



If the message was on a letterhead, you could match up the letterhead with other official documents and see if it was genuine. Who in their right mind writes a letter to Hans Kammler, the same person that developed Peenemunde and the V2 rocket test area, but uses a blank or scrap piece of paper to type up a memo to him? That is an insult. How would even Hans Kammler know the information was genuine, without the letter having even a letterhead on it. There is something fishy with that.

But if you were trying to fake a letter, the finding a letterhead from the correct office and time period, and on matching paper stock, would be almost impossible. So just having a simple letterhead at the top of this message would erase any doubts about authenticity. But no letterhead. How strange that is.

And your map of how many Jews were killed in each country, I would agree that the general distribution for each country is close to what I observed in the World Atlas prior to 1940. But where did they get their data? Who did the counting?



What is the source of these numbers? Who was out in these countries at the time, and was doing the counting, and had access to the data? What was their nationality? It had to be the Germans, right? If the Germans counted these numbers, then it has to be on a document somewhere. Where is it?

And what were the motivations for padding these numbers for the Holocaust, if they were padded?

Yet the number for the Holodomor in Ukraine are downplayed.

Realize also that billions of dollars have been extracted from post-war Germany for reparations and other damages from the Holocaust, based on these numbers. This did not happen with the Holodomor.

And so the Holocaust cannot be denied, but the Holodomor, with 10 million kulaks killed, is ignored. And you can deny the Holodomor, and you won't be arrested in Germany or lose your teaching job in the USA. But no one denies the Holocaust without repercussions.

The problem is not the Holocaust, or that Jews died in the German camps in WWIi. No one should deny either one. The problem is how they make us concentrate on it, and feel guilty about it, even if you have nothing to do with Germany and have no sympathy for Nazism.

It is also important to consider how people died in the camps. At the end of the war, the Allied bombing and fighters strafed anything that moved on the roads. Paul Rassinier was a Communist and nearly died from starvation in the Dora Nazi camp. Rassinier, based on his experience as an actual concentration camp victim, questioned the Holocaust, even though the SS guards had kicked him in the kidneys so that he later died from kidney failure. Rassinier did not hate Jews, and pointed out that many other people were in the camps, like himself, and were not Jewish. Homosexuals, alcoholics, Jehovah's witness, Bruderhof, 7th day adventist, Communist, socialists, and anyone that opposed the regime or would not fight was in the camps. They died too.

You would have to read Rassinier's books, and not just what they say about Rassinier, to ever discredit him. You cannot judge a man's position by what his enemies say about him.

Rassinier said he never heard of the gas chambers while he was an inmate in the various camps. I am amazed that Rassinier only heard about the gas chambers after the war, as news like a gas chamber would surely spread through a camp, even if only as a rumor. That generates a lot of questions.

The 11 year old Anne Frank, who is credited with writing her diary, she survived Auschwitz and did not die in a gas chamber. She was moved by train ahead of the Red Army to the camp at Bergen Belsen, where she died from typhus in February 1945. Typhus is spread by lice. Zyklon B is an insecticide used to kill lice. At the end of the war in 1945, Zyklon B was no longer available, and new inmates were no longer being deloused. Lice and typhus spread through the camps without this insecticide. Typhus killed a LOT of people in these camps at the end of the war. So yes, they were "death camps." No one denies that.

When a new inmate arrived, they had their head shaved, they were given a shower and soap to delouse themselves, and their clothes were put into a delousing chamber. The delousing chamber was a small room, covered in pitch and tar, and closed with a metal door. There was a device that activated the Zyklon B pellets and blew the gas into the delousing chamber. Once completed, the deloused clothes were given back to the inmate.

Zyklon A had been sold for years as an insecticide. It could be activated by water and heat to make the pellets create hydrogen cyanide gas. The problem was, if there was a fire (heat) and the firemen tried to put it out with water, then the pellets could activate and easily kill the firemen. Zyklon B pellets required a reagent, plus heat to activate the pellets, which made it safer to use. It also had a irritant so that anyone could smell it and know that the gas was present.

The idea that you can pour these pellets down a chimney without activation, or have them come out of a shower head nozzle and kill people is hard for me to grasp. Or that the gas chambers were not coated in a thick layer of cyanide that we can see today.

Fred Leuchter extracted samples from the mortuaries (for storing dead bodies) that were used as gas chambers and from the delousing chambers. Leuchter had a company do an analysis of the residues in the samples. In the mortuary rooms that are called the "gas chambers", the company found the slightest trace of cyanide, almost undetectable. In the delousing chamber, the cyanide residue was 8,000 times greater.

The only way to verify what Leuchter found is to have an "unbiased 3rd party" to take new samples and run the test again. It will never happen.

The Holocaust and the Apollo moon missions both have problems. The Apollo moon missions have created a lot of questions, because the footage shows astronauts bouncing past the American flag, and the flag wiggles from the wind off the astronaut's body. Yet there is no air on the moon. And the astronauts did leave their experiments on the moon which can still be seen today. So the answer is "in the middle." Yes, they went to the moon, but no they could not transmit the bandwidth needed for live television from the lunar surface due to the weight of the equipment and the technology of 1969. But they did go to the moon, even if the video has problems.

The same is true with the Holocaust. Yes many, many people died horribly in these camps, but the story has been embellished with human skin lampshades, human soap, and other things. Are the gas chambers an embellishment? We won't know without a proper test.

So, there is a simple answer. Re-run the Leuchter test, with an impartial testing group. Other than that, arguing about the Holocaust just makes you appear to be anti-Semitic or something. I am anti-war, and anti-Zionist, but I am not anti-Semitic.

I am also amazed by the level of control they have over human reasoning in this area. No one can question this Holocaust. It is the "third rail" for just about everyone.

Also, what is amazing, is that these new "Pro Palestinian Protests" are being funded by George Soros. Since the October 7th massacre, there has been a change, with the Establishment no longer completely supporting Israel. The uncontrolled migration of Muslims to Europe and the USA will ultimately have political consequence for the State of Israel. So something is up, and the pendulum appears to be moving another way.

Your responses are always appreciated.

Thanks,

John

[Bootstrap]

There was a metal plaque at the Auschwitz visitor center that had been there since the Soviet Union days. The USSR plaque was still there in 1990 with 4 million deaths listed, and the Holocaust revisionists made a big deal out of it when the new government lowered the number to 1 million.

So I got the number wrong. My apology.

Thanks. So I think we agree on the numbers, then.

The point is that the number changed. Reality does not change. If they can count 4 million one time, and 1 the next time, they need to show how they came up with their numbers.

Define "they", and it all becomes clear. (This is a common problem with your posts, FWIW, not defining who you are talking about).

1. The USSR had a plaque that said 4 million. That plaque probably doesn't exist any more.
2. Responsible historians had numbers much closer to 1 million - 1.6 million for Auschwitz. I gave a list of these historians.

The problem we have now - is not how many, but that whatever number is presented - this new number is now "sacred" and must be correct.

Why is it, then, that the sites I pointed to discuss various estimates and ways of determining the number, comparing them, and don't scold their sources as long as they provide some basis? I went to the trouble of looking at the history of figures used by Holocaust historians, and it just doesn't match what you say. Yes, the USSR and Poland gave some wild numbers, but many historians at the time were skeptical.

So yes, we agree that the number is 1 million.

Good. So we can assume that historians who gave estimates in this range were being responsible?

The Soviet Union also presented lampshades made out of human skin, and soap made out of the fat of dead Jews. Those artifacts are no longer available for DNA testing, for some reason. But if I see a pattern of behavior about how the USSR has reported the Holocaust, then I am the one blamed. So there is no point in discussing it.

One of these claims is true on a small scale. The other is false. There were some lampshades and other artifacts made from human skin, particularly with tattoos. And especially at Buchenwald. For instance:

https://www.buchenwald.de/en/geschichte ... ueberreste
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation ... 01900.html

So out of the two items, they only lied one time. So it is nice to know that the people that lied once are not lying this time. [/quote]

Your standards are quite high here. I think there are times that you have gotten facts wrong, even in this thread. Does that make you a liar, or do people sometimes make mistakes and correct them over time as they learn?

Seems like Jewish historians and other Holocaust historians also see problems with the way the Soviet Union reported these things. They say this if you go visit concentration camps or Holocaust museums. So when you say the same thing they are saying, why the martyrdom complex? You declare you are being persecuted before anyone starts persecuting you. Yeah, I know, this is part of the general banter for conspiracy theories - "I am telling you the truth nobody wants you to know!" If it's truth, it's usually based in facts, those facts can be found, and presenting those facts comes across quite differently than presenting conspiracy theory claims that are never disprovable.

The real proof would be to find a "disinterested 3rd party", if that even is possible today, and this 3rd party would be provided a sample from the lampshade.

The neutral 3rd party would take the sample to a crime lab, and ask that the DNA be extracted and matched to find the closest relative.

Have you tried Googling "DNA testing lampshades Buchenwald"? If not, give it a try. And there have been other forensic tests. As I said, this was not a large-scale factory operation, but it looks like this did happen. And not just lampshades. Primarily at Buchenwald

The stories of soap made from human fat seem to be based on propaganda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made ... an_corpses
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-soap-myth

Aaron Breitbart, a senior researcher at the Simon Wiesenthal Center, agreed that the evidence is thin. “The leading scholars of the Holocaust are of the opinion that the Nazis did not make soap,” he says. “It was a cruel rumor at the camps.”

!!! SNIP !!!

So, even the fact that the Soviets made up this bogus bar of soap, and presented it as being made from the fat of dead Jews, even this ridiculous presentation of a bogus bar of soap is also the fault of the Nazis, as it was obviously a "cruel rumor at the camps." So the Nazis did it after all, not the Soviets. It really was the Nazi's fault, as they made up the idea in the first place, and the nice Soviets just followed through.

That is absurd.

OK, so if survivors of the Holocaust say that this is what they were told about the soap, and you don't want to believe it, then it isn't true?

That's what is absurd.

The Holocaust is the founding myth of the State of Israel. It is the justification for all of the crimes committed by the Zionists. Many Jews are also opposed to Zionism, like the "American Council for Judaism." Zionism is an invention of Herzl in the 1890's. Judaism is cultural.

The Holocaust actually happened. 6 million Jews. That is incredibly well documented.

I agree that this does not justify the way Palestinians have been treated. But that doesn't mean we get to erase the history of the Holocaust or minimize it.

So I oppose how the Holocaust has been used to cover up the crimes of the Allies, like the fire bombing of Dresden, the murder of Germans in the Rhine Meadows camps, that 95,000 Germans were captured at Stalingrad and only 5,000 returned, and many others. But the worst part is what is happening right now, how the Holocaust is being used is for justification of the on-going war against the people of Palestine, based on something that happened in Germany 80 years ago.

I oppose all of those things too. But both the Palestinians and the Jews have their own histories. And some of what is going on in Palestine is due to what happened on October 7th last year.

The problem is - how to verify history - from the artifacts of history.

For example, your evidence of a letter to Hans Kammler stating that 4,700 people can be cremated a day - why wasn't it typed on a proper letterhead? It is just typed on a blank sheet of paper.

Extreme skepticism can deny any fact. There's always some loophole ... there's this weird belief people have that just being extremely skeptical is some kind of insider knowledge or wisdom. It isn't.

The people who actually have access to the original documents, remains, artifacts, etc. seem to be in agreement. These are people who do this kind of work day-in, day-out. They know how to deal with this kind of artifact. The stories you make up are not evidence, they are not original documents. You seem to require infinite evidence of others, but are you producing original documents for anything at all? There are no original documents or artifacts of the Holocaust in the Nashville Public Library. That's quite simply the wrong place to look for them.

Fred Leuchter extracted samples from the mortuaries (for storing dead bodies) that were used as gas chambers and from the delousing chambers. Leuchter had a company do an analysis of the residues in the samples. In the mortuary rooms that are called the "gas chambers", the company found the slightest trace of cyanide, almost undetectable. In the delousing chamber, the cyanide residue was 8,000 times greater.

The only way to verify what Leuchter found is to have an "unbiased 3rd party" to take new samples and run the test again. It will never happen.

If Fred Leuchter lied about his credentials as an engineer, does that make him a liar, according to your standards? If he was paid $30,000 to write that report to defend Ernst Zündel in an upcoming trial, does that cast some light on this? If he lied to James Roth who did the actual testing, saying he was testing for a an industrial accident, and James Roth said that invalidated the tests, that this was like "analyzing paint on a wall by analyzing the timber that's behind it," does that affect his credibility?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_A._Leuchter

Why do you insist that Fred Leuchter, of all people, is an unimpeachable source? If the very person who ran the tests says they do not demonstrate what he claims, why are you so sure?

[Neto]

I'm ag'in' it.

[JohnHurt]

The "dodge" is to not accept that running the tests with a disinterested 3rd party would prove anything.

DNA testing of a lampshade would show the haplogroup and possibly the nearest relative to the person that provided the human skin. Was the person Jewish and died in the camps, or was it someone that died in battle in WWII? Or was it a prisoner of the Soviet Union?

They should at least do a modern DNA test, that would settle it. As simple as "23 and Me".

Here is what I got when I googled "DNA Testing lampshade", from the NY times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/books/01book.html

The book tells of a guy that was a cemetery thief, and produced a lampshade that was definitely human skin, but too brittle for DNA testing. The book asked the right question, is it human and if so, whose skin is it? But no, it could not be tested, as it was "too brittle". But since the book is "Non-fiction", it must be true. The Holocaust is also non-Fiction.

Why not just run the test on whatever lampshade there was, and wherever the lampshade happens to be now, if it still exists. I am not the author of this confusion. I understand that more lampshades made from human skin can be found. Apparently there is a factory making them.

Here is the original photo from Wikipedia, titled "Buchenwald Human Remains", with the lampshade on the right:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampshade ... human_skin

Here are the first two paragraphs of the Wikipedia article:

There are two notable instances of lampshades made from human skin. After World War II it was reported that Nazis had made at least one lampshade from murdered concentration camp inmates: a human skin lampshade was reported to have been displayed by Buchenwald concentration camp commandant Karl-Otto Koch and his wife Ilse Koch, along with other human skin artifacts.[2][3][4] Despite myths to the contrary, there were no systematic efforts by the Nazis to make human skin lampshades.[5]

In the 1950s, murderer Ed Gein, possibly influenced by the stories about the Nazis, made a lampshade from the skin of one of his victims.

Moving on...


Here is a Nazi Gas Chamber in Majdanek, Poland:



You can see the "Prussian Blue" stain on the walls, which is produced when cyanide interacts with the iron in the cement that creates the color. Prussian Blue created from cyanide gas is non-toxic, and should have coated all of the walls evenly, if there was an even amount of iron in the cement and the cyanide gas was allowed to evenly coat the walls. The Prussian Blue color looks uneven. Either there was an uneven amount of iron in the cement, or someone smeared the Prussian Blue on the walls by hand. There needs to be a logical reason why the blue color is uneven.

It would be very easy for a researcher to go inside this room and scrape off a sample, and have it tested for cyanide. Then compare the results to a similar sample taken from the delousing chambers, that were used every day to delouse the clothes of the prisoners with cyanide gas.

If the two samples are nearly the same, then that would prove the gassing of people in these rooms. But I don't think it will ever happen.

And however many people died in these camps, either from gas or otherwise, it is a tragedy. But the problem is not the Nazis, it is something that nearly every government does. It is called "democide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Here are the number of people killed by governments:

Communist:
China at 76,702,000 (1949–1987),
the Soviet Union at 61,911,000 (1917–1987),
Democratic Kampuchea (1975–1979) at 2,035,000,
Vietnam (1945–1987) at 1,670,000,
Poland (1945–1987) at 1,585,000,
North Korea (1948–1987) at 1,563,000,
Yugoslavia (1945–1987) at 1,072,000.[18]

Fascist:
Nazi Germany at 20,946,000 (1933–1945),
Nationalist China (1925–1949) and later Taiwan (1949–1987) at 10,214,000,
Empire of Japan at 5,964,000 (1900–1945).

Estimates for other regime-types include:
the Ottoman Empire at 1,883,000 (Armenian genocide and Greek genocide),
Pakistan at 1,503,000 (1971 Bangladesh genocide),
Porfiriato in Mexico at somewhere between 600,000 and 3,000,000 and closer to 1,417,000 (1900–1920),[9]
the Russian Empire at 1,066,000 (1900–1917).[18]

A good question is why do we not have memorials for all of these democides? Why just one memorial for only one democide?

My other question is why do the Palestinian people have to pay for the crimes of the Holocaust?

But the original question is, How do you tell if a government is lying to the people? The answer is by testing.

For example, if 9-11 is true, then you would test burning a steel girder with jet fuel, and if the jet fuel melted the steel girder, then 9-11 could be as the government described it to us. If jet fuel, which is refined kerosene, cannot ever reach the temperature needed to melt steel, then there is another answer for how the girders melted and the buildings fell into their own footprint. Also, how World Trade Center 7, which was not hit by a plane, how it fell into its own footprint for no real reason. I wouldn't know how to test for that.

But there were are tests on YouTube, until they were removed, that showed how jet fuel interacted with steel girders, and how thermite would be more appropriate.

For the OK City bombing, I understand that the US Navy did a test to replicate the van filled with fertilizer and diesel used by Timothy McVeigh to blow up the Oklahoma City Murrah Building. The test concluded that the fertilizer bomb was too slow to build up enough pressure to cause that much damage. When the first barrel filled with fertilizer exploded, it disrupted the other barrels, and the bomb "fizzled". So that was a productive test.

Our modern technology could be used to prove or disprove a lot of different theories. I understand that they won't test the remains of John Wilkes Boothe for DNA matching to his closest relatives. So if Boothe really died in a burning barn, or someone else did, we may never know.

I think you have to be impartial to history to ever see the truth. And the hardest subject of all to not show any partiality would be the subject of the Holocaust.

Thanks, it is has been nice discussing this with you.

John

[Bootstrap]

I think you have to be impartial to history to ever see the truth. And the hardest subject of all to not show any partiality would be the subject of the Holocaust.

I agree. So far, you don't strike me as particularly impartial, though.

Except ... all kinds of people, from many different perspectives, have reached roughly the same conclusions. About 6 million Jews and about 6 million Gentiles were killed by the Nazis. Under horrible conditions. Pretty much everyone with access to the original documents and artifacts agrees on these basics.

And however many people died in these camps, either from gas or otherwise, it is a tragedy. But the problem is not the Nazis, it is something that nearly every government does. It is called "democide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Sure. When I lived in Germany, I often pointed this out. Germans would often say, "I'm ashamed to be German". And I'd say, "I'm ashamed to be human".

Here are the number of people killed by governments:

Communist:
China at 76,702,000 (1949–1987),
the Soviet Union at 61,911,000 (1917–1987),
Democratic Kampuchea (1975–1979) at 2,035,000,
Vietnam (1945–1987) at 1,670,000,
Poland (1945–1987) at 1,585,000,
North Korea (1948–1987) at 1,563,000,
Yugoslavia (1945–1987) at 1,072,000.[18]

Fascist:
Nazi Germany at 20,946,000 (1933–1945),
Nationalist China (1925–1949) and later Taiwan (1949–1987) at 10,214,000,
Empire of Japan at 5,964,000 (1900–1945).

Estimates for other regime-types include:
the Ottoman Empire at 1,883,000 (Armenian genocide and Greek genocide),
Pakistan at 1,503,000 (1971 Bangladesh genocide),
Porfiriato in Mexico at somewhere between 600,000 and 3,000,000 and closer to 1,417,000 (1900–1920),[9]
the Russian Empire at 1,066,000 (1900–1917).[18]

A good question is why do we not have memorials for all of these democides? Why just one memorial for only one democide?

I imagine because many more Americans are related to victims of the Holocaust or know people in their families. I know several myself. But I agree that we should remember these other things too.

My other question is why do the Palestinian people have to pay for the crimes of the Holocaust?

Both Palestinians and Jews have suffered a great deal. That doesn't give either the right to kill the other. But beyond that, October 7th is the thing that launched the current war, not the Holocaust.

But the original question is, How do you tell if a government is lying to the people? The answer is by testing.

The evidence for the murder of approximately 6 million Jews and 6 million Gentiles is overwhelming and comes from multiple, independent sources that agree. The combination of Nazi documentation, eyewitness testimonies, demographic studies, forensic evidence, historical research, and lists of victim's names is compelling.

This has been researched about as exhaustively as any historical event can be.

[JohnHurt]

A good question is why do we not have memorials for all of these democides? Why just one memorial for only one democide?
I imagine because many more Americans are related to victims of the Holocaust or know people in their families. I know several myself. But I agree that we should remember these other things too.

My son's wife - her father as a child escaped the Holodomor in Ukraine with his family. His family was rescued from the Soviets "by the Nazis" of all people, and they came back to Germany as Eastern front collapsed for Germany. After the war, they were in Germany as "displaced persons" and migrated to Maine.

I asked him about the Holocaust, and his answer was that it only affected the lower classes of Jews, and not the elites that had already left Germany when the war began. The average Jew was not responsible for anything, yet was blamed for all of it.

I also studied why the German people supported Hitler and were against the Jews. From Germans that lived in Germany before the war, there were 3 reasons they wanted the Jews removed from Germany:

1. They saw that the Jews had an extraordinary influence over their country. The Jews were less than 5% of the population, but were over represented in the courts, banks, Weimar government, and other institutions that controlled Germany.

2. They blamed the Jews for the economic problems of Germany. They thought the Jews had loaned out money to their friends, but the debts were never repaid. This allowed the Jews to buy up property in Germany for the price of paper money, which was nothing. They blamed the Jews for the hyper inflation under the Weimar government.

3. The last reason is why the Germans really hated the Jewish people, even though not all were guilty. They blamed the Jews for the destruction of German morality, like the theaters in Berlin, where every decadent idea was presented to the German people. The book burnings of the Nazis were the books that promoted homosexuality and transgenderism. Magnus Hirschfield and others established the "Institut für Sexualwissenschaft", which promoted unChristian attitudes towards sex and marriage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_ ... ssenschaft
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Hirschfeld
For these reasons, and for usury, abortion, prostitution, and other vices that were associated with "some Jews", all Jews were blamed.

Also note that Hitler's Germany started the "Transfer Agreement" which provided the initial settlers for what became the State of Israel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

I understand that Hitler wanted to send the bulk of German Jews to Madagascar, but the war prevented him.

In light of this, the idea that Hitler would kill 6 million Jews needs to be considered. The concentration camp at Auschwitz was providing slave labor for the production of synthetic rubber, made from coal. I cannot understand why someone would kill the workforce that was producing rubber for their war machine.

Slave labor was a big part of why people were in these concentration camps. Yes, they were "worked to death", but being purposely killed would defeat the reason for slave labor.

I have a lot of questions about the Holocaust, and not a lot of good answers. And at the same time, I don't want to offend someone. Because of these constraints, no one can have a "real" discussion about it.

The Holocaust story has a purpose, which is the creation and support for the State of Israel. Yet there is now a different path.

George Soros is now funding the pro-Palestinian protests at the major campuses. Unlimited Muslim immigration to France, UK, and Germany will ultimately make everyone there "take the mat" and convert to Islam, which will be the death of the State of Israel. Sadiq Khan is the beginning of Islamic political power.

I no longer hear a lot of people talking about the Holocaust. Nothing happens in politics that is not planned. I really believe the days of the "State of Israel" are numbered. The Establishment appears to be turning towards a new direction. I think they see Islam as their answer.

The "Jews" that supposedly "run the world" are not really "Jews" but are those of Revelation 2:9 and Rev 3:9. Sabbatai Zevi and Jacob Frank created a new religion that hides behind Judaism. Jacob Frank, the Rothchilds and their banks, and Adam Weishaupt who formed the Illuminati, are an "unholy trinity" that has created the world we see today. Sabbati Zevi created the "donmeh" in Islam, and influenced the Catholic church. Zevi taught that the more sin you commit, the more you are like "god".

I wonder if the arrival of Zevi and others is not the "little season" where the Devil is released into the world. Revelation 20:3

There is something evil to all men that caused the Holocaust, and the aggression of Germany in WWII. There is something evil that has caused the constant wars we have seen in the 20th and 21st centuries, with the wars in Ukraine and Gaza being "the current thing."

Something devilish happened to the ordinary Jew, whether 6 million or not, whether gas chambers or not. I have been trying to look at the "bigger picture."

What Alex Jones and other say, is that we are in a spiritual war, and only by prayer and supplication to our God YHVH and Jesus Christ can we ever defeat this evil. What is interesting is that the Establishment tolerates religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and even loves and promotes Islam, but absolutely hates Christianity.

I would hope that we can all pray to our God and to Jesus Christ for deliverance from evil. I really hope Christ returns soon.

Many blessings,

John

[Bootstrap]

I also studied why the German people supported Hitler and were against the Jews. From Germans that lived in Germany before the war, there were 3 reasons they wanted the Jews removed from Germany:

Oh, you actually believe all of what Hitler claimed?

Do you know what a demagogue is? Do you know why that is relevant here? Do you consider people who follow demagogues particularly wise and discerning and knowledgeable? I think the answers to these questions determine a lot about what lines of reasoning people find plausible.

[Szdfan]

Sure. When I lived in Germany, I often pointed this out. Germans would often say, "I'm ashamed to be German". And I'd say, "I'm ashamed to be human".

What stands out about the German/Nazi genocide over other genocides was the systematic and industrial nature of it. With the death camps like Auschwitz, the Nazis built “death factories” whose purpose was to eradicate Jews and other “undesirables” as quickly and efficiently as possible. What also stands out are the extensive records that the Germans kept which document the genocide.

Genocide has always existed, but what the Nazis did took it to a higher level that was (and still is) shocking.

[Josh]

Sure. When I lived in Germany, I often pointed this out. Germans would often say, "I'm ashamed to be German". And I'd say, "I'm ashamed to be human".

What stands out about the German/Nazi genocide over other genocides was the systematic and industrial nature of it. With the death camps like Auschwitz, the Nazis built “death factories” whose purpose was to eradicate Jews and other “undesirables” as quickly and efficiently as possible. What also stands out are the extensive records that the Germans kept which document the genocide.

Genocide has always existed, but what the Nazis did took it to a higher level that was (and still is) shocking.

What stands about the American abortion holocaust is the systematic and industrial nature of it. With the death camps like the abortion facilities in California and New York, liberals have built "death factories" whose only purpose is to kill as many babies as possible. As a few states have taken very reasonable measures to limit abortion to (for example) not happening just weeks or days before a full-term birth, liberals have taken extreme measures to shuttle pregnant women to abortion-friendly states, much like the Nazi's railroads which kept the concentration camps - and the ovens - at full capacity in the final days of World War II.

Mass murder has always existed, but the American left has taken it to a higher level that was, and still is, shocking. America typically has about a million abortions a year. That's more than 8 holocausts since 1973, when Roe v Wade forced every state to allow abortion, much like Hitler's Enabling Acts made the Holocaust possible.

[Ken]

Sure. When I lived in Germany, I often pointed this out. Germans would often say, "I'm ashamed to be German". And I'd say, "I'm ashamed to be human".

What stands out about the German/Nazi genocide over other genocides was the systematic and industrial nature of it. With the death camps like Auschwitz, the Nazis built “death factories” whose purpose was to eradicate Jews and other “undesirables” as quickly and efficiently as possible. What also stands out are the extensive records that the Germans kept which document the genocide.

Genocide has always existed, but what the Nazis did took it to a higher level that was (and still is) shocking.

What stands about the American abortion holocaust is the systematic and industrial nature of it.

Why are you bringing abortion into this discussion? And in any event, if the death of a fetus or fertilized embryo is genocide then mother nature has done more genocide than all causes combined and it isn't even close. The rate of miscarriage worldwide is estimated at about 40% of which up to half happen before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Since about 140 million babies are born worldwide every year a little math tells us that about 93 million are aborted by mother nature every year. That is a whole lot of genocide. Do those 93 million deaths of human babies concern you as well?