Bunny Trails

[ken_sylvania]

In Pennsylvania it's illegal for a minister to perform a marriage ceremony if the couple has not obtained a marriage license from the state.

This surprises me as the trend among states is to forgo state interference in religious ceremonies: that includes marriage and ministers. It seems that PA law is ripe for challenging from a religious liberty group.

I doubt they would get anywhere challenging marriage license requirements. I'm sure the courts would find that the state has a compelling interest in regulating marriages that trumps any kind of religious right to marry one's cousin.

[Ken]

No, the state doesn't ask you to do anything. You are free to have whatever kind of religious ceremony you want and not report it to the state. Nor do you need to ever claim to be married when interacting with the state. You can simply tell the state that it is no business of theirs whether or not you are married. The only reason to record your marriage with the state in the form of a state-issued marriage license is to claim the legal benefits of being married. The same legal benefits you want to deny to others.

In Pennsylvania it's illegal for a minister to perform a marriage ceremony if the couple has not obtained a marriage license from the state.

No, it is not.

It simply means the marriage is not legally valid under the laws of PA if they don't FIRST obtain a marriage license.

Ministers are free to perform any ceremonies they wish to perform if no one is seeking a state-issued marriage license.

[Josh]

It is indeed illegal in Ohio for someone to conduct a marriage ceremony without it a marriage licence as well.

[ken_sylvania]

No, the state doesn't ask you to do anything. You are free to have whatever kind of religious ceremony you want and not report it to the state. Nor do you need to ever claim to be married when interacting with the state. You can simply tell the state that it is no business of theirs whether or not you are married. The only reason to record your marriage with the state in the form of a state-issued marriage license is to claim the legal benefits of being married. The same legal benefits you want to deny to others.

In Pennsylvania it's illegal for a minister to perform a marriage ceremony if the couple has not obtained a marriage license from the state.

No, it is not.

It simply means the marriage is not legally valid under the laws of PA if they don't FIRST obtain a marriage license.

Ministers are free to perform any ceremonies they wish to perform if no one is seeking a state-issued marriage license.

That's bonkers. PA Title 23 specifically says a minister is not allowed to perform a marriage if the couple chooses not to obtain a state-issued marriage license.

No person or religious organization qualified to perform marriages shall officiate at a marriage ceremony without the parties having obtained a marriage license issued under this part.

It's also illegal for a couple in PA to get married without a license.

No person shall be joined in marriage in this Commonwealth until a marriage license has been obtained.

[Josh]

It’s also illegal to represent yourself in public as married if you are not. In practical terms this would mean telling the government you’re married etc., but that is indeed the law as written.

[Ken]

In Pennsylvania it's illegal for a minister to perform a marriage ceremony if the couple has not obtained a marriage license from the state.

No, it is not.

It simply means the marriage is not legally valid under the laws of PA if they don't FIRST obtain a marriage license.

Ministers are free to perform any ceremonies they wish to perform if no one is seeking a state-issued marriage license.

That's bonkers. PA Title 23 specifically says a minister is not allowed to perform a marriage if the couple chooses not to obtain a state-issued marriage license.

No person or religious organization qualified to perform marriages shall officiate at a marriage ceremony without the parties having obtained a marriage license issued under this part.

It's also illegal for a couple in PA to get married without a license.

No person shall be joined in marriage in this Commonwealth until a marriage license has been obtained.

No, you are misreading the regulation. If you read up to the top of the regulation, the entire section refers to:

(a) General rule.--The following are authorized to solemnize marriages between persons that produce a marriage license issued under this part:

In other words, the entire set of regulations is only applicable to the process of "solemnizing marriages" that produce a marriage license issued by the state.

If neither the minister nor the couple are interested in obtaining a state-issued marriage license than none of these regulations have any relevance whatsoever and they can do anything they want. The state only regulates marriage insofar as it applies to marriages that produce a marriage license. No marriage license, no regulation.

What is happening is that in PA the state is authorizing ministers to act on its behalf and generate valid marriage licenses issued by the that are signed by the minister and probably also witnesses. As such, the state has written regulations to ensure that the process is followed according to the regulations including first applying for a marriage license. Part of this is because the state has a mandatory 3-day waiting period from the time that you request the license until you are legally able to get married. Unlike say Nevada where you can do it instantly. That is why the two regulations you copied exist. To make sure that the minister and couple follow the 3-day mandatory waiting period. Which again, only applies if you are actually trying to get a state-issued marriage license. If you aren't none of it has any relevance.

[Ken]

It’s also illegal to represent yourself in public as married if you are not. In practical terms this would mean telling the government you’re married etc., but that is indeed the law as written.

Also not true. You can't represent yourself to the state as "legally married" if you don't meet the State's criteria for being legally married (state-issued marriage license). That would be perjury if you did it on a state form or some such. But you can tell people anything you want to tell them in public generally.

Just like gay people could call themselves married in public before gay marriage was legal. But they couldn't call themselves legally married on government forms until they had marriage licenses.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of saying gay people don't need to get married while simultaneously saying that some straight couple has to be legally married with a marriage license to live their lives. They don't. Lots of couples live their lives together without ever getting the state's blessing via a marriage license.

[temporal1]

If “Mother Nature” is responsible for miscarriage deaths, she is also responsible for the millions who die every year of natural causes, old age, etc. These are the correct categories that miscarriages share.

The only miscarriage that is in the same category as abortions, is the miscarriage of justice.

God have mercy.
If this forum accomplishes nothing else, it has to reflect reason why to stay away from gov schools.

We suffered 3 early miscarriages, in those days, the cold words, “spontaneous abortion” were used.
There was no confusion about natural cause as you describe.

**Since that time, science has discovered (what God designed and knew all along) that every conception impacts the mother’s body on a molecular level, leaving beneficial changes for the rest of her life. Every conception. Live birth or not. Known or not known. Conception cannot be completely erased, not by nature or human intervention. A designed miracle.

Science follows God, it does not lead Him. Impossible. Science allows glimpses of God, nothing more.
Somehow, “those 3” we did not meet have impacted my body, as well as my mind, left wondering about them.

God created each one of us, not any man or woman or science. We so often give ourselves unwarranted credit.

**This could be a new topic.
There is so much fascinating science on conception and development of human life. Always human at all stages, nothing else.

[ken_sylvania]

No, it is not.

It simply means the marriage is not legally valid under the laws of PA if they don't FIRST obtain a marriage license.

Ministers are free to perform any ceremonies they wish to perform if no one is seeking a state-issued marriage license.

That's bonkers. PA Title 23 specifically says a minister is not allowed to perform a marriage if the couple chooses not to obtain a state-issued marriage license.

No person or religious organization qualified to perform marriages shall officiate at a marriage ceremony without the parties having obtained a marriage license issued under this part.

It's also illegal for a couple in PA to get married without a license.

No person shall be joined in marriage in this Commonwealth until a marriage license has been obtained.

No, you are misreading the regulation. If you read up to the top of the regulation, the entire section refers to:

(a) General rule.--The following are authorized to solemnize marriages between persons that produce a marriage license issued under this part:

In other words, the entire set of regulations is only applicable to the process of "solemnizing marriages" that produce a marriage license issued by the state.

If neither the minister nor the couple are interested in obtaining a state-issued marriage license than none of these regulations have any relevance whatsoever and they can do anything they want. The state only regulates marriage insofar as it applies to marriages that produce a marriage license. No marriage license, no regulation.

What is happening is that in PA the state is authorizing ministers to act on its behalf and generate valid marriage licenses issued by the that are signed by the minister and probably also witnesses. As such, the state has written regulations to ensure that the process is followed according to the regulations including first applying for a marriage license. Part of this is because the state has a mandatory 3-day waiting period from the time that you request the license until you are legally able to get married. Unlike say Nevada where you can do it instantly. That is why the two regulations you copied exist. To make sure that the minister and couple follow the 3-day mandatory waiting period. Which again, only applies if you are actually trying to get a state-issued marriage license. If you aren't none of it has any relevance.

Ken, that is patently false. #1 - If this section only applies where the couple has a marriage license, then the provision prohibiting ministers from officiating a marriage where no license has been obtained makes no sense. If the provision only applies if the couple has a marriage license, then ipso facto the minister could not possibly ever violate that provision.
#2 - PA does not authorize ministers to generate marriage licenses.

[Josh]

Ken, with respect, your argument reminds me of tax protesters who claim you don’t have to pay income tax by just pretending you don’t have any income and calling it something else.