Have you had a COVID-19 vaccination?

[Judas Maccabeus]

So let me get this straight:

- It was created in a lab and was a lab leak, after all (NY Times)

- Fauci just made up the 6 foot rule which had no basis in science

Is there any reason we should continue to trust public health "authorities" and "experts"?

No. It appears they knew, or should have known that this was from a “gain of function study” funded on the US taxpayers dime. There are no intermediate forms, and this appears to have arisen suddenly, with a unique feature that was under discussion.

“ While it’s possible that the furin cleavage site could have evolved naturally (as seen in some distantly related coronaviruses), out of the hundreds of SARS-like viruses cataloged by scientists, SARS‑CoV‑2 is the only one known to possess a furin cleavage site in its spike. And the genetic data suggest that the virus had only recently gained the furin cleavage site before it started the pandemic.
Ultimately, a never-before-seen SARS-like virus with a newly introduced furin cleavage site, matching the description in the Wuhan institute’s Defuse proposal, caused an outbreak in Wuhan less than two years after the proposal was drafted.”

I worked among Mainland Researchers for some 12 years. One thing you can be certain of, they would kill their mother for a breakthrough paper, that is the path to success. Instead, they killed untold numbers of people. It is clearly the result of some sort of gain of function study.

[Ken]

So let me get this straight:

- It was created in a lab and was a lab leak, after all (NY Times)

- Fauci just made up the 6 foot rule which had no basis in science

Is there any reason we should continue to trust public health "authorities" and "experts"?

No. It appears they knew, or should have known that this was from a “gain of function study” funded on the US taxpayers dime. There are no intermediate forms, and this appears to have arisen suddenly, with a unique feature that was under discussion.

That isn't at all what the NYT story you pointed us to says.

[Judas Maccabeus]

So let me get this straight:

- It was created in a lab and was a lab leak, after all (NY Times)

- Fauci just made up the 6 foot rule which had no basis in science

Is there any reason we should continue to trust public health "authorities" and "experts"?

No. It appears they knew, or should have known that this was from a “gain of function study” funded on the US taxpayers dime. There are no intermediate forms, and this appears to have arisen suddenly, with a unique feature that was under discussion.

That isn't at all what the NYT story you pointed us to says.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... =url-share

Try this

[Ken]

No. It appears they knew, or should have known that this was from a “gain of function study” funded on the US taxpayers dime. There are no intermediate forms, and this appears to have arisen suddenly, with a unique feature that was under discussion.

That isn't at all what the NYT story you pointed us to says.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... =url-share

Try this

I have a NYT subscription. I read the article. I'm pointing out that the research wasn't funded on the US taxpayers dime. In fact, we don't even know if it even ever happened. From the article:

In 2021, The Intercept published a leaked 2018 grant proposal for a research project named Defuse, which had been written as a collaboration between EcoHealth, the Wuhan institute and Ralph Baric at the University of North Carolina, who had been on the cutting edge of coronavirus research for years. The proposal described plans to create viruses strikingly similar to SARS‑CoV‑2.

So there was a grant proposal in 2018 that proposed to create viruses similar to COVID

Coronaviruses bear their name because their surface is studded with protein spikes, like a spiky crown, which they use to enter animal cells. The Defuse project proposed to search for and create SARS-like viruses carrying spikes with a unique feature: a furin cleavage site — the same feature that enhances SARS‑CoV‑2’s infectiousness in humans, making it capable of causing a pandemic. Defuse was never funded by the United States. However, in his testimony on Monday, Dr. Fauci explained that the Wuhan institute would not need to rely on U.S. funding to pursue research independently.

It was never funded by the US and they wouldn't have needed US funding anyway

Ultimately, a never-before-seen SARS-like virus with a newly introduced furin cleavage site, matching the description in the Wuhan institute’s Defuse proposal, caused an outbreak in Wuhan less than two years after the proposal was drafted.

When the Wuhan scientists published their seminal paper about Covid-19 as the pandemic roared to life in 2020, they did not mention the virus’s furin cleavage site — a feature they should have been on the lookout for, according to their own grant proposal, and a feature quickly recognized by other scientists.

When the COVID outbreak started the virus looked similar to what was proposed in 2018. But again, it was a grant proposal that was never funded by the US and we don't know if the Chinese actually pursued the research on their own. That is just speculation.

Worse still, as the pandemic raged, their American collaborators failed to publicly reveal the existence of the Defuse proposal. The president of EcoHealth, Peter Daszak, recently admitted to Congress that he doesn’t know about virus samples collected by the Wuhan institute after 2015 and never asked the lab’s scientists if they had started the work described in Defuse. In May, citing failures in EcoHealth’s monitoring of risky experiments conducted at the Wuhan lab, the Biden administration suspended all federal funding for the organization and Dr. Daszak, and initiated proceedings to bar them from receiving future grants. In his testimony on Monday, Dr. Fauci said that he supported the decision to suspend and bar EcoHealth.

So nobody still knows if the Defuse proposal was ever funded or undertaken by the Chinese. All we know is that if it did proceed, the US did not play a role.

Separately, Dr. Baric described the competitive dynamic between his research group and the institute when he told Congress that the Wuhan scientists would probably not have shared their most interesting newly discovered viruses with him. Documents and email correspondence between the institute and Dr. Baric are still being withheld from the public while their release is fiercely contested in litigation.

In the end, American partners very likely knew of only a fraction of the research done in Wuhan. According to U.S. intelligence sources, some of the institute’s virus research was classified or conducted with or on behalf of the Chinese military. In the congressional hearing on Monday, Dr. Fauci repeatedly acknowledged the lack of visibility into experiments conducted at the Wuhan institute, saying, “None of us can know everything that’s going on in China, or in Wuhan, or what have you. And that’s the reason why — I say today, and I’ve said at the T.I.,” referring to his transcribed interview with the subcommittee, “I keep an open mind as to what the origin is.”

In the end, no one actually knows what kind of secret research was conducted in China under the auspices of the Chinese military. We do know whatever it was, it was kept secret from the US and US researchers.

None of that tells me that COVID came from gain of function research funded by the US. It speculates that such research happened (without proof) but states unequivocally that the US was not involved.

Skipping down to the bottom of the article, we find

The pandemic could have been caused by any of hundreds of virus species, at any of tens of thousands of wildlife markets, in any of thousands of cities, and in any year. But it was a SARS-like coronavirus with a unique furin cleavage site that emerged in Wuhan, less than two years after scientists, sometimes working under inadequate biosafety conditions, proposed collecting and creating viruses of that same design.

While several natural spillover scenarios remain plausible, and we still don’t know enough about the full extent of virus research conducted at the Wuhan institute by Dr. Shi’s team and other researchers, a laboratory accident is the most parsimonious explanation of how the pandemic began.

So again, there was a proposal back in 2018 that wasn't funded by the US and we have no idea whether the Chinese pursued it on their own. That is a lot of speculation. Maybe it was, indeed the origin of COVID. But as the article points out. We just don't know. The best the author can do is say that if such research actually occurred, then a lab accident would be the most "parsimonious explanation" of how the pandemic began.

Bottom line? The author lays out a plausible scenario for how a lab accident *could* have been the origin of the COVID pandemic. Assuming that certain secret research was undertaken by the Chinese. But there is no actual evidence that any of that happened.

I am still mystified by the obsession over this subject on the right. I'm not actually sure what argument they are trying to make. As far as I'm concerned, the natural origin theory is BY FAR the more terrifying. It means that the conditions for the next pandemic exist everywhere in the world where wild Animals are part of the human food supply. China, elsewhere in Asia, Africa, Brazil, Central America, etc. etc. It is infinitely easier to correct some lab and research procedures than to make wholesale changes to the worldwide food supply in dozens of countries around the world.

[Judas Maccabeus]

That isn't at all what the NYT story you pointed us to says.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... =url-share

Try this

I have a NYT subscription. I read the article. I'm pointing out that the research wasn't funded on the US taxpayers dime. In fact, we don't even know if it even ever happened. From the article:

In 2021, The Intercept published a leaked 2018 grant proposal for a research project named Defuse, which had been written as a collaboration between EcoHealth, the Wuhan institute and Ralph Baric at the University of North Carolina, who had been on the cutting edge of coronavirus research for years. The proposal described plans to create viruses strikingly similar to SARS‑CoV‑2.

So there was a grant proposal in 2018 that proposed to create viruses similar to COVID

Coronaviruses bear their name because their surface is studded with protein spikes, like a spiky crown, which they use to enter animal cells. The Defuse project proposed to search for and create SARS-like viruses carrying spikes with a unique feature: a furin cleavage site — the same feature that enhances SARS‑CoV‑2’s infectiousness in humans, making it capable of causing a pandemic. Defuse was never funded by the United States. However, in his testimony on Monday, Dr. Fauci explained that the Wuhan institute would not need to rely on U.S. funding to pursue research independently.

It was never funded by the US and they wouldn't have needed US funding anyway

Ultimately, a never-before-seen SARS-like virus with a newly introduced furin cleavage site, matching the description in the Wuhan institute’s Defuse proposal, caused an outbreak in Wuhan less than two years after the proposal was drafted.

When the Wuhan scientists published their seminal paper about Covid-19 as the pandemic roared to life in 2020, they did not mention the virus’s furin cleavage site — a feature they should have been on the lookout for, according to their own grant proposal, and a feature quickly recognized by other scientists.

When the COVID outbreak started the virus looked similar to what was proposed in 2018. But again, it was a grant proposal that was never funded by the US and we don't know if the Chinese actually pursued the research on their own. That is just speculation.

Worse still, as the pandemic raged, their American collaborators failed to publicly reveal the existence of the Defuse proposal. The president of EcoHealth, Peter Daszak, recently admitted to Congress that he doesn’t know about virus samples collected by the Wuhan institute after 2015 and never asked the lab’s scientists if they had started the work described in Defuse. In May, citing failures in EcoHealth’s monitoring of risky experiments conducted at the Wuhan lab, the Biden administration suspended all federal funding for the organization and Dr. Daszak, and initiated proceedings to bar them from receiving future grants. In his testimony on Monday, Dr. Fauci said that he supported the decision to suspend and bar EcoHealth.

So nobody still knows if the Defuse proposal was ever funded or undertaken by the Chinese. All we know is that if it did proceed, the US did not play a role.

Separately, Dr. Baric described the competitive dynamic between his research group and the institute when he told Congress that the Wuhan scientists would probably not have shared their most interesting newly discovered viruses with him. Documents and email correspondence between the institute and Dr. Baric are still being withheld from the public while their release is fiercely contested in litigation.

In the end, American partners very likely knew of only a fraction of the research done in Wuhan. According to U.S. intelligence sources, some of the institute’s virus research was classified or conducted with or on behalf of the Chinese military. In the congressional hearing on Monday, Dr. Fauci repeatedly acknowledged the lack of visibility into experiments conducted at the Wuhan institute, saying, “None of us can know everything that’s going on in China, or in Wuhan, or what have you. And that’s the reason why — I say today, and I’ve said at the T.I.,” referring to his transcribed interview with the subcommittee, “I keep an open mind as to what the origin is.”

In the end, no one actually knows what kind of secret research was conducted in China under the auspices of the Chinese military. We do know whatever it was, it was kept secret from the US and US researchers.

None of that tells me that COVID came from gain of function research funded by the US. It speculates that such research happened (without proof) but states unequivocally that the US was not involved.

Skipping down to the bottom of the article, we find

The pandemic could have been caused by any of hundreds of virus species, at any of tens of thousands of wildlife markets, in any of thousands of cities, and in any year. But it was a SARS-like coronavirus with a unique furin cleavage site that emerged in Wuhan, less than two years after scientists, sometimes working under inadequate biosafety conditions, proposed collecting and creating viruses of that same design.

While several natural spillover scenarios remain plausible, and we still don’t know enough about the full extent of virus research conducted at the Wuhan institute by Dr. Shi’s team and other researchers, a laboratory accident is the most parsimonious explanation of how the pandemic began.

So again, there was a proposal back in 2018 that wasn't funded by the US and we have no idea whether the Chinese pursued it on their own. That is a lot of speculation. Maybe it was, indeed the origin of COVID. But as the article points out. We just don't know. The best the author can do is say that if such research actually occurred, then a lab accident would be the most "parsimonious explanation" of how the pandemic began.

Biochemical features as complex as a lysine clamp seldom evolve without leaving intermediate forms around. There are none, which smells to high heaven. The fact that it was a bright idea already floated for funding means simply that it did not get funding from that source, but was someone’s pet project.

Ken, this stinks. I am no conspiracy theorist, but too many things are present for a coincidence.

[Ken]

Biochemical features as complex as a lysine clamp seldom evolve without leaving intermediate forms around. There are none, which smells to high heaven. The fact that it was a bright idea already floated for funding means simply that it did not get funding from that source, but was someone’s pet project.

Ken, this stinks. I am no conspiracy theorist, but too many things are present for a coincidence.

It sounds like a possible plausible hypothesis but nothing more. I'm not a virologist. But I know enough about viruses from teaching biology to know that we have only scratched a minute fraction of the total number of viruses out there. We aren't talking about vertebrates here. A single teaspoon of river or sea water contains about 50 million viruses. A teaspoon of soil might have billions. So the fact that we haven't isolated intermediate forms is not an argument I find compelling. We have only isolated an extremely tiny fraction of the viruses out there in the wild.

Again, as far as I'm concerned, the vastly more terrifying scenario is that this virus is of wild origin. That is what terrifies me. Because it means the problem isn't with some lab procedures in some isolated lab. But with the basic food supply of dozens upon dozens of nations around the world from Asia to Africa to South America. Lab procedures are easily fixed. Changing worldwide food habits, not so much.

[Josh]

I'm not a virologist.

[Ken]

I'm not a virologist.

None of us are. Yet we can read and become informed. I'm merely pointing out that the NYT article cited by Judas Maccabeus doesn't actually say what people think it says.

[Josh]

I'm not a virologist.

None of us are. Yet we can read and become informed. I'm merely pointing out that the NYT article cited by Judas Maccabeus doesn't actually say what people think it says.

I read it and I fully agree with Jm on what it says.

[Judas Maccabeus]

None of us are. Yet we can read and become informed. I'm merely pointing out that the NYT article cited by Judas Maccabeus doesn't actually say what people think it says.

I read it and I fully agree with Jm on what it says.

It actually says:

That studies were done in Wuhan under conditions that were unsafe for working with high level pathogens. The were doing things that we would not do handling potentially infected blood here.

That “gain of function” studies involving the addition of a lysine clamp were proposed. They were not funded by us directly. But they surely were the topic of the discussions over tea or Ertog, whatever they were drinking. A scholar, looking to impress surely had the bright idea that he could do this, in his lab, safe or not, and get a major paper out of it.

Suddenly, a pathogen, with a lysine clamp shows 1500 miles away from where they are commonly found. Government tries to hide all details of the early samples of this pathogen.

Hence, the smoking gun.