Birth Rates and Immigration

[Ken]

The figures for children born included all births regardless of parents’ legal status. I don’t feel discussion of illegal alirns who already reside in the U.S. is especially fruitful, particularly regarding their children.

If I grouped births to illegal aliens (estimates range from 8%-30%) with the illegal alien encounters, then the difference would be even more stark. But I prefer not to “cook” the data like that.

All children born in the US are US citizens and by definition NOT immigrants.

The only exception is that the children of diplomats born in the US do not qualify for citizenship under the 14th amendment because they are not "subject to the jurisdiction of the US." Diplomats have diplomatic immunity and are, therefore, not subject to the jurisdiction of the US. Section 1 of the 14th Amendment reads:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Don't like it? Then we have to repeal the 14th Amendment. Not all countries grant birthright citizenship. Switzerland, for example, does not. But it would require a constitutional amendment to change in the US.

Nobody suggested that children born in the US are immigrants.

Josh suggested grouping births to illegal immigrants into the "illegal immigrant" category, right there in the section of text I quoted above.

I'm just pointing out that such children are neither illegal nor immigrants.

[ohio jones]

Josh suggested grouping births to illegal immigrants into the "illegal immigrant" category, right there in the section of text I quoted above.

Josh suggested NOT grouping births to illegal immigrants into the "illegal immigrant" category, right there in the section of text you quoted above.

Seems to be an epidemic of people leaving out the word NOT, thereby saying what they did intend to say. Or, as the case may be.

[Josh]

To clarify, my position at this time is specifically not to propose to repeal the 14th amendment and simply to compare populations already in the U.S., regardless of visa status, with incoming migration. I think it’s a much more fair comparison and a more humane one to talk about changing, as opposed to mass deportations, or having two “classes” of people within our borders who are born here. Perhaps any further discussion about that can go in its own thread.

[ken_sylvania]

All children born in the US are US citizens and by definition NOT immigrants.

The only exception is that the children of diplomats born in the US do not qualify for citizenship under the 14th amendment because they are not "subject to the jurisdiction of the US." Diplomats have diplomatic immunity and are, therefore, not subject to the jurisdiction of the US. Section 1 of the 14th Amendment reads:


Don't like it? Then we have to repeal the 14th Amendment. Not all countries grant birthright citizenship. Switzerland, for example, does not. But it would require a constitutional amendment to change in the US.

Nobody suggested that children born in the US are immigrants.

Josh suggested grouping births to illegal immigrants into the "illegal immigrant" category, right there in the section of text I quoted above.

I'm just pointing out that such children are neither illegal nor immigrants.

It's kind of scary to think that we have public school teachers with such a poor level of reading comprehension, or lack of care about accuracy in making accusations.

Josh absolutely didn't suggest grouping births to illegal immigrants into the "illegal immigrant" category in the text that you quoted. There is a huge difference in meaning between grouping one thing with another thing vs. grouping it into that other thing. A farmer might group his chickens with his turkeys and tell you how many birds he owns, but that in no way suggests that he thinks his chickens are turkeys.

[Josh]

That’s a good analogy. Specifically I don’t want to talk about whether chickens or turkeys are “better”.

Instead, we have some poultry barns which comfortably 50,000 birds. Meanwhile, the farmer next door keeps sending his birds (chickens, turkeys, and some partridges as well) over to our barns. Now our barns are beyond full, and it’s a bad situation for the partridges and chickens and turkeys piling up.

At some point, we want a discussion if perhaps the other farmer could close his barn door. If he needs some extra feed I’ll even send some over. And if this continues, I’ll have to put up Poultry-Net[tm] around the whole farm, and I’d rather not do that as I like to let my birds free range.

[ohio jones]

(chickens, turkeys, and some partridges as well)

The analogy would be better if it were peared back to just chickens and turkeys. If I've heard it once I've heard it a dozen times, especially at this season of the year, partridges don't live in barns.

[Ken]

Nobody suggested that children born in the US are immigrants.

Josh suggested grouping births to illegal immigrants into the "illegal immigrant" category, right there in the section of text I quoted above.

I'm just pointing out that such children are neither illegal nor immigrants.

It's kind of scary to think that we have public school teachers with such a poor level of reading comprehension, or lack of care about accuracy in making accusations.

Josh absolutely didn't suggest grouping births to illegal immigrants into the "illegal immigrant" category in the text that you quoted. There is a huge difference in meaning between grouping one thing with another thing vs. grouping it into that other thing. A farmer might group his chickens with his turkeys and tell you how many birds he owns, but that in no way suggests that he thinks his chickens are turkeys.

Josh suggested that he "could" group them together with encounter numbers but prefers not to "cook the books" which I agree with.

But we really aren't talking about chickens or turkeys at all here, or even birds. Josh is talking about two separate groups of people:

1. Immigrant encounters at the border
2. Children born in the US to undocumented parents.

In point of fact, NEITHER of those two groups are illegal immigrants. In fact, none of them are. So if illegal immigrants are birds then there are no birds here to see or count.

Some percentage of those immigrants encountered/detained by the border patrol are expelled, some percentage are detained for future action, and some percentage are paroled into the US pending final resolution of their cases. None of those three groups constitute illegal aliens unless they break out of detention or something.

I was simply pointing out that children born in the US are neither illegal nor immigrants so don't belong in the "bird" category either.

It is all well and good to talk about illegal immigration versus US births. But no one has presented any data whatsoever showing what the numbers of illegal immigrants are in 2023 or any other recent year. Josh certainly hasn't with the graphs above. And no one else has either.

[Josh]

I’ve never broken out data about children specifically born to illegal aliens, don’t think it’s relevant, and don’t wish to discuss it.

My data for number of births is ALL children born in America. Once again, we’re talking about birds, and not discussing whether the birds are chickens or turkeys or Bantams.

Immigtant encounters mean people who decided not to cross into the U.S. at a designated port to entry, which is the proper way to enter a country. As already documented elsewhere, illegal entries from a presumed safe country, including Canada and Mexico, aren’t eligible for asylum claims. So yes, everyone who entered without a visa and gets caught is indeed “illegal”.

[Judas Maccabeus]

(chickens, turkeys, and some partridges as well)

The analogy would be better if it were peared back to just chickens and turkeys. If I've heard it once I've heard it a dozen times, especially at this season of the year, partridges don't live in barns.

You suggest they frequent fruit trees? At this time of year?

Do partridges self deport, otherwise known as migrate? If they do, are they migrants?

[eccentric_rambler]

Do partridges self deport, otherwise known as migrate? If they do, are they migrants?

Migrants, yes. Migrant workers, no. They freeload off the fruits of the land.