Bunny Trails

[temporal1]

It’s all closely intertwined imo, but I haven’t got time for this.

there are different applications of the word, liberal, it gets tiresome dividing all that out, over+over. esp when the spirit of intent is negative.

[ohio jones]

No Rick Warrens on forum, to my knowledge.

106 pages of other warrens, though.

[Falco Knotwise]

P. S. Ken, not that I don’t enjoy a spirited conversation with you from time to time, but having to go research stories I’m not even familiar with is a bit much for me right now.

[Falco Knotwise]

It’s all closely intertwined imo, but I haven’t got time for this.

there are different applications of the word, liberal, it gets tiresome dividing all that out, over+over. esp when the spirit of intent is negative.

True. My brain is too tired to do the necessary divisions right now.

[Ken]

P. S. Ken, not that I don’t enjoy a spirited conversation with you from time to time, but having to go research stories I’m not even familiar with is a bit much for me right now.

This all started with my objection to your characterization of the problem as follows:

Personally, I suspect liberalism/modernism at the root of that crisis. Their followers are like arsonists who go round lighting fires themselves and then enjoy standing around to mock the firemen trying to put it out. Once that’s out, it’s on to starting another fire somewhere else. Rinse and repeat.

I am simply objecting to the notion that liberalism/modernism however you want to define it and the followers of liberalism are at the root of this crisis. It clearly runs across an entire cross section of the church. My wife has a cousin who is a leader in Opus Dei in Chile. They are as conservative and anti-modernist as they come. And sure enough, they have had their own sex scandals too.

I certainly agree that a big part of this is gay priests. But I don't think that can be attributed to liberalism. To the contrary. There is really no connection between ideology and sexual orientation. Repressed conservative gay men are almost an architype. And any gay priests who join the priesthood are either lying to themselves or lying to the church and in most cases probably both. But that doesn't make them liberal or conservative, however you want to define those terms. In fact, the Catholic church in general is probably far more attractive to conservatives than liberals because it is at its heart a very conservative institution through and through. Perhaps one of the most conservative institutions in human history given how long it has been around. The Catholic church is probably the last institution on the planet that someone with liberal/modernist tendencies is going to seek out. They will choose other paths in life.

[Falco Knotwise]

The Catholic church is probably the last institution on the planet that someone with liberal/modernist tendencies is going to seek out. They will choose other paths in life.

You have to understand it from a Catholic perspective to know what I meant. Popes have been warning of the infiltration of modernism (closely associated with liberalism in our understanding) into the Church since before the turn of the 20th century. I believe that is what we are witnessing today.

[Ken]

The Catholic church is probably the last institution on the planet that someone with liberal/modernist tendencies is going to seek out. They will choose other paths in life.

You have to understand it from a Catholic perspective to know what I meant. Popes have been warning of the infiltration of modernism (closely associated with liberalism in our understanding) into the Church since before the turn of the 20th century. I believe that is what we are witnessing today.

Oh I agree there is a longstanding battle within the Catholic church between the conservative forces represented roughly by Pope Benedict and the liberal/reformist forces represented roughly by Pope Francis.

I'm just disagreeing with the notion that the century+ long sex abuse scandal has anything to do with that.

[Falco Knotwise]

The Catholic church is probably the last institution on the planet that someone with liberal/modernist tendencies is going to seek out. They will choose other paths in life.

You have to understand it from a Catholic perspective to know what I meant. Popes have been warning of the infiltration of modernism (closely associated with liberalism in our understanding) into the Church since before the turn of the 20th century. I believe that is what we are witnessing today.

Oh I agree there is a longstanding battle within the Catholic church between the conservative forces represented roughly by Pope Benedict and the liberal/reformist forces represented roughly by Pope Francis.

I'm just disagreeing with the notion that the century+ long sex abuse scandal has anything to do with that.

Suit yourself.

[silentreader]

You have to understand it from a Catholic perspective to know what I meant. Popes have been warning of the infiltration of modernism (closely associated with liberalism in our understanding) into the Church since before the turn of the 20th century. I believe that is what we are witnessing today.

Oh I agree there is a longstanding battle within the Catholic church between the conservative forces represented roughly by Pope Benedict and the liberal/reformist forces represented roughly by Pope Francis.

I'm just disagreeing with the notion that the century+ long sex abuse scandal has anything to do with that.

Suit yourself.

In my opinion, for what it is worth, I think you are probably both right. I think the presence of gay priests and sexual abuse in the institution is not an expression of liberalism. Neither is the attempt to hide it.
I would say when the institution moves to accept and normalize gay priests and the potential for sexual abuse.....that is an expression of liberalism.

[JayP]

The recent folly and heresy by the Pope is not surprising. In many ways his ruling on “blessings” is out of the Vatican II playbook. Allow something with supposed clarification. The liberal side will run with it. You will see wide open blessing of gay marriage that looks just like a wedding mass on some places. The conservative side will scream and condemn it….and be ignored. The neo-con will be upset that this is wrong then reconcile it with Paul loyalty by saying “the Pope did not mean you could do THIS. Folks are breaking the guidelines.”

I have never doubted the reality there will be an “end times”, nor quick to say I am living in them.

I have detested this Pope since his election and have always felt we will never know why Ratzinger resigned.
I am deeply thankful for familial roots that offer an escape route to the Orthodox.

It is also good to know that be you Jewish, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anabaptist or Protestant the reality of an Antichrist system is still something you face. Picking the “right church” does not change the reality that like salvation, persistence against joining the Antichrist is an individual battle line for each of us. Your church and beliefs will aid you, but membership is not any guarantee.