War in Gaza

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Bootstrap

Re: War in Gaza

Post by Bootstrap »

HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:44 am Well as it turns out neither did/does Hamas...so they both got what they wanted until they didn't? I'm unconvinced by arguments that seek to place the blame of October 7th on Jews and Israel.
I agree - October 7th was an atrocity done by Hamas, they bear the guilt. Not Jews and Israel. Not Palestinians or Gazans.

But I do think that things would be very different if both Palestine and Israel had their own countries where they could live safely and in peace. And I would like to see that happen. And I think both the atrocities of October 7th and the atrocities Israel has committed since then make it harder to get there. Both Palestinians and Israelis have been deeply, deeply traumatized.

Palestinians were promised a country in 1948. Until 1991, they weren't even included in negotiations. Israel is not offering them either a state of their own or equality within Israel. I don't know how these tensions can be resolved in the long term without some resolution of the Palestinian question. Israelis are rightly offended that Hamas does not think Israel has the right to a state of its own. Palestinians are just as offended when the Israelis feel the same way about them.
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Soloist

Re: War in Gaza

Post by Soloist »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:33 pm Palestinians were promised a country in 1948. Until 1991, they weren't even included in negotiations. Israel is not offering them either a state of their own or equality within Israel. I don't know how these tensions can be resolved in the long term without some resolution of the Palestinian question. Israelis are rightly offended that Hamas does not think Israel has the right to a state of its own. Palestinians are just as offended when the Israelis feel the same way about them.
Who promised them a country?
If you are referring to the UN agreement, Israel accepted that agreement, The Arab leaders did not.
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Ken
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Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: War in Gaza

Post by Ken »

This is the original 1947 map showing the original partition of Palestine under the UN mandate.
  • Gaza is much larger than it is today and almost touches the West Bank.
  • Jerusalem is solidly within the West Bank and is designated as an international enclave.
  • The city of Jaffa on the Mediterranean coast is an Arab enclave.
  • Arab lands extend north to the border with Lebanon.
  • All of these areas were to be connected by extraterritorial roads, guaranteeing free passage within each state and free passage of all to Jerusalem.
Image

Several things to notice

So what happened? Jewish leaders weren't thrilled with the partition but reluctantly accepted it. Arab leaders rejected it completely. Partly this was on the grounds that Israel had been given the best land, but mostly it was because they flatly refused to accept the establishment of a Jewish state. They declared war on Israel as soon as the partition was announced, with the stated intent of destroying it.

They lost, and by the time the war ended a lot of territory had changed hands. Israel took Jaffa, the northern Arab region, most of Gaza, and much of the West Bank—and forcibly expelled nearly a million Palestinians from Israeli territory in the process. Jordan seized the rest of the West Bank. Egypt took the remaining piece of Gaza. The extraterritorial roads, needless to say, were consigned to the dustbin of history.

From that point on the Arab states enforced a total air and land blockade against Israel while Egypt blocked its use of the Suez Canal. In 1956, Egypt's president, Gamal Abdel Nasser, blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba, preventing Israel from developing an alternate route to the Red Sea and Asia. At the same time he nationalized the Suez Canal, prompting an invasion from Britain, France, and Israel. They pulled back due to international pressure and Nasser reopened Aqaba.

During the rest of the 50's Palestinian fedayeen trained in Eqypt mounted repeated attacks across the border into Israel. In 1964 Nasser created the Palestine Liberation Organization. In 1967 he blockaded Aqaba again and planned an imminent war against Israel, joined by other Arab states.

Several more wars later, all of them started by Arab states or Palestinians and we are where we are today.

What a different world it would be today had the Palestinians accepted the 1948 partition. Launching a war of choice is rarely a good idea. Whether you are the Confederate south, the Nazis and Japanese in 1939, the Palestinians in 1948, the Americans in Iraq, or the Russians in Ukraine.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ernie

Re: War in Gaza

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:39 am For the underlying question, the best answer is that empires often seem willing to sacrifice lots of ground troops for dubious ends. For some examples, you can look at Russia and Ukraine right now, both of which are sending legions of men into a meat grinder, with neither side really achieving much of significant at all. Or American in Afghanistan; whilst casualties weren't that high, many young men and women did get blown up by IEDs and maimed or killed, and ultimately the invasion was a complete failure.
Israel has now lost 116 soldiers in the ground invasion.

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-a ... -op-to-116
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Bootstrap

Re: War in Gaza

Post by Bootstrap »

Soloist wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:24 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:33 pm Palestinians were promised a country in 1948. Until 1991, they weren't even included in negotiations. Israel is not offering them either a state of their own or equality within Israel. I don't know how these tensions can be resolved in the long term without some resolution of the Palestinian question. Israelis are rightly offended that Hamas does not think Israel has the right to a state of its own. Palestinians are just as offended when the Israelis feel the same way about them.
Who promised them a country?
If you are referring to the UN agreement, Israel accepted that agreement, The Arab leaders did not.
I agree with you - and with Ken.

But still ... the Palestinians themselves were not even included in that negotiation, or any other, until 1991. And no matter how you assign the blame, it doesn't negate the point I made: people want to live in safety and in peace. People with a national identity want to do so in their own country. And Palestine was promised their own country the same way Israel was.

I don't see how you convince them that this no longer matters. And I don't know how you get to long-term peace without addressing their concerns as well as Israel's.
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Jazman

Re: War in Gaza

Post by Jazman »

I think these links are related, maybe helpful? I've found this writer's perspective on this issue, history, current events: (I believe he's Jewish, although I was finding it hard to confirm...) Unpopular Front Substack. (Especially "The Trap" post, Oct 13)

His most recent post, Arendt and Jerusalem addresses antisemitism/Zionism/nationalism and some historical figures who've wrestled with those things. I especially liked the lengthy quotations from Hanna Arendt(rather prophetic in fact...) The post's final paragraph is quotable...
"...there were things that Arendt found deeply admirable that arose out of Jewish settlement in Palestine. Among these were the Cultural Zionists’ formation of Hebrew University and its fidelity to the Jewish tradition of learning, that institution’s first chancellor Judah Magnes’s programs for Arab-Jewish peace and cooperation, and the new modes of human solidarity and productivity pioneered by the kibbutz movement. Already in her time the possibilities these forces represented seemed to be slipping away and her writing about them is even quite rueful, despite her vaunted lack of sentimentality. She feared that these civilized hopes would be 'first victims of a long period of military insecurity and nationalistic aggressiveness” to be replaced with “Chauvinism of the Balkan type [that] could use the religious concept of the chosen people and allow its meaning to degenerate into hopeless vulgarity.' ”
Over the years, I've found it helpful to read and listen to multiple, more adjacent-than-I-can-be voices, with a leaning towards more apolitical, less nationalistic agendas. These seem to be more objective than what we get from more mainstream outlets or poor-reading-of-Revelation biased evangelical sources...
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Josh

Re: War in Gaza

Post by Josh »

Nationalism of an extreme type rules the day in Israel (and, for that matter, it also did in Arafat’s Palestine).

What is interesting is just how much in love with Zionist nationalism the evangelical right wing in America is. Drive through an evangelical neighbourhood and you’ll see menorahs on windows and Israeli flags flying.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: War in Gaza

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:13 pm Nationalism of an extreme type rules the day in Israel (and, for that matter, it also did in Arafat’s Palestine).

What is interesting is just how much in love with Zionist nationalism the evangelical right wing in America is. Drive through an evangelical neighbourhood and you’ll see menorahs on windows and Israeli flags flying.
Nationalism can really be a curse. The Ottoman Empire for all its flaws was a vast multi-ethnic empire where people from a vast smorgasbord of nationalities generally lived together in peace and were neighbors. Ethnic and language maps of the Ottoman Empire are incredibly complex. In wake of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and rise of extreme nationalism that followed we can find the roots of nearly every big ethnic clash and genocide in the middle east and southern Europe in the past 100 years

The Armenian Genocide by Turks
Persecution and genocide of Kurds across Turkey, Iran, and Iraq
The Lebanese and Syrian Civil Wars
The Bosnian genocide and civil wars in Bosnia, Kosovo, Croatia, Serbia in the 1990s.
The recent clashes between Armenia and Azerbaijan
The endless conflict between Greece and Turkey and war over Cypress.
And yes, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

They are all essentially the same exact story just told with different accents. Former neighbors no longer able to live together due to extreme nationalism and religion. And outside agitation doesn't help matters either.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ernie

Re: War in Gaza

Post by Ernie »

Woops... 3 hostages mistakenly killed
https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/war ... s-threats/
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Josh

Re: War in Gaza

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 4:39 pm Woops... 3 hostages mistakenly killed
https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/war ... s-threats/
I often couldn’t tell the difference just by looking between a Palestinian and an Israeli.
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