College Turmoil

[Ken]

I agree with you Ken, that protests (even ugly ones) are and part-and-parcel of university life. I think it is incumbent upon a university to err on the side of free speech inasmuch as open inquiry and free expression are the bedrock principles of the very idea of the university. Nevertheless, while it should err on the side of free speech, it's not the only value to consider and inasmuch as most universities are also close-knit, lived-in communities, it has to consider the effects of truly noxious and evil sentiments on the social fabric of their communities. I think what we've been seeing these past 2 months on campuses and in larger cities is something beyond a simple protest; it's tipped over into intimidation and harassment and threats of violence. When Jewish students and teachers have to hide from mobs, when the lighting of Menorahs are cancelled out of an "abundance of caution" for the lives of Jewish folk, when Jews are advised to stay indoors on certain days for their own safety; I think things have moved beyond the exercise of free speech and into something far more sinister. Politicians are gonna politic and of course they're gonna "never gonna let a good crisis go to waste" - the issue though is not being invented by Republicans, and that is where I think your partisan blinders are keeping you from evaluating this situation objectively. As it is, the now-defenestrated President Magill agrees that something is amiss:

I draw a very clear distinction between speech and action. Intimidation, threats, etc. are all beyond the pale and no university should EVER do things like advise Jewish students to stay indoors on certain days or to not pass freely through their campus without threats and harassment. That is a complete failure on the part of the university to maintain order and civility.

That said, I think we have gone way too far in our university culture to try to cultivate "safe spaces" for students and avoid having them made uncomfortable. College students are ADULTS. And college SHOULD be a place where your beliefs are challenged and where you explore ideas that might make you uncomfortable. College students are not toddlers. They are preparing to be leaders in a world where their beliefs will be challenged and the will encounter ideas that make them uncomfortable.

So, I find abhorrent the sorts of things that are becoming common on many campuses these days. To cite some examples:

Hamline University professor fired after showing a famous Islamic painting and some conservative Muslim students complained: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/08/us/h ... ammad.html

Florida University professors banned from discussing some topics related to racism: https://www.propublica.org/article/desa ... professors

Yale censors publication of books that "might" offend Muslims: https://www.thefire.org/news/campus-cen ... new-normal

Brandeis University professor reprimanded for racial harassment His crime? Discussing the epithet "wetback" in his Latin American studies class-to explain where the term came from and criticize its use. https://www.thefire.org/news/campus-cen ... new-normal

Tarleton State cancels student performance of an award winning play because it had a gay character: https://www.thefire.org/news/campus-cen ... new-normal

The examples are endless.

And if you were to write some sort of standard that, for example, tries to protect Jewish students from feeling uncomfortable or hearing messages that they may find offensive. Then I promise you the next group to employ that same exact standard will be LGBT students who will demand the censorship and removal of conservative evangelical groups on campus who might tell them that being LGBT is a sin. Because if Jewish or Muslim or conservative Christian students have a right not to feel uncomfortable on campus then so do LGBT students. And then we are back down the rabbit hole.

[temporal1]

o. the horror of what COULD happen!! just imagine.

[Ken]

o. the horror of what COULD happen!! just imagine.

Shrug...

you want to protect one group from speech that isn't threatening but just makes them uncomfortable. Then you are going to have to protect all groups and individuals from speech that isn't threatening but just make them uncomfortable. And then the university has lost its way as an institution of free expression and academic freedom.

[HondurasKeiser]

I agree with you Ken, that protests (even ugly ones) are and part-and-parcel of university life. I think it is incumbent upon a university to err on the side of free speech inasmuch as open inquiry and free expression are the bedrock principles of the very idea of the university. Nevertheless, while it should err on the side of free speech, it's not the only value to consider and inasmuch as most universities are also close-knit, lived-in communities, it has to consider the effects of truly noxious and evil sentiments on the social fabric of their communities. I think what we've been seeing these past 2 months on campuses and in larger cities is something beyond a simple protest; it's tipped over into intimidation and harassment and threats of violence. When Jewish students and teachers have to hide from mobs, when the lighting of Menorahs are cancelled out of an "abundance of caution" for the lives of Jewish folk, when Jews are advised to stay indoors on certain days for their own safety; I think things have moved beyond the exercise of free speech and into something far more sinister. Politicians are gonna politic and of course they're gonna "never gonna let a good crisis go to waste" - the issue though is not being invented by Republicans, and that is where I think your partisan blinders are keeping you from evaluating this situation objectively. As it is, the now-defenestrated President Magill agrees that something is amiss:

I draw a very clear distinction between speech and action. Intimidation, threats, etc. are all beyond the pale and no university should EVER do things like advise Jewish students to stay indoors on certain days or to not pass freely through their campus without threats and harassment. That is a complete failure on the part of the university to maintain order and civility.

That said, I think we have gone way too far in our university culture to try to cultivate "safe spaces" for students and avoid having them made uncomfortable. College students are ADULTS. And college SHOULD be a place where your beliefs are challenged and where you explore ideas that might make you uncomfortable. College students are not toddlers. They are preparing to be leaders in a world where their beliefs will be challenged and the will encounter ideas that make them uncomfortable.

So, I find abhorrent the sorts of things that are becoming common on many campuses these days. To cite some examples:

Hamline University professor fired after showing a famous Islamic painting and some conservative Muslim students complained: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/08/us/h ... ammad.html

Florida University professors banned from discussing some topics related to racism: https://www.propublica.org/article/desa ... professors

Yale censors publication of books that "might" offend Muslims: https://www.thefire.org/news/campus-cen ... new-normal

Brandeis University professor reprimanded for racial harassment His crime? Discussing the epithet "wetback" in his Latin American studies class-to explain where the term came from and criticize its use. https://www.thefire.org/news/campus-cen ... new-normal

Tarleton State cancels student performance of an award winning play because it had a gay character: https://www.thefire.org/news/campus-cen ... new-normal

The examples are endless.

And if you were to write some sort of standard that, for example, tries to protect Jewish students from feeling uncomfortable or hearing messages that they may find offensive. Then I promise you the next group to employ that same exact standard will be LGBT students who will demand the censorship and removal of conservative evangelical groups on campus who might tell them that being LGBT is a sin. Because if Jewish or Muslim or conservative Christian students have a right not to feel uncomfortable on campus then so do LGBT students. And then we are back down the rabbit hole.

I think this is right and I think the piece I posted by Bari Weiss comes close to this idea as well. I think where we differ over the present issue is how far along the Free Speech-Incitement Spectrum are the various university, pro-Palestinian protests.

[Ken]

I agree with you Ken, that protests (even ugly ones) are and part-and-parcel of university life. I think it is incumbent upon a university to err on the side of free speech inasmuch as open inquiry and free expression are the bedrock principles of the very idea of the university. Nevertheless, while it should err on the side of free speech, it's not the only value to consider and inasmuch as most universities are also close-knit, lived-in communities, it has to consider the effects of truly noxious and evil sentiments on the social fabric of their communities. I think what we've been seeing these past 2 months on campuses and in larger cities is something beyond a simple protest; it's tipped over into intimidation and harassment and threats of violence. When Jewish students and teachers have to hide from mobs, when the lighting of Menorahs are cancelled out of an "abundance of caution" for the lives of Jewish folk, when Jews are advised to stay indoors on certain days for their own safety; I think things have moved beyond the exercise of free speech and into something far more sinister. Politicians are gonna politic and of course they're gonna "never gonna let a good crisis go to waste" - the issue though is not being invented by Republicans, and that is where I think your partisan blinders are keeping you from evaluating this situation objectively. As it is, the now-defenestrated President Magill agrees that something is amiss:

I draw a very clear distinction between speech and action. Intimidation, threats, etc. are all beyond the pale and no university should EVER do things like advise Jewish students to stay indoors on certain days or to not pass freely through their campus without threats and harassment. That is a complete failure on the part of the university to maintain order and civility.

That said, I think we have gone way too far in our university culture to try to cultivate "safe spaces" for students and avoid having them made uncomfortable. College students are ADULTS. And college SHOULD be a place where your beliefs are challenged and where you explore ideas that might make you uncomfortable. College students are not toddlers. They are preparing to be leaders in a world where their beliefs will be challenged and the will encounter ideas that make them uncomfortable.

So, I find abhorrent the sorts of things that are becoming common on many campuses these days. To cite some examples:

Hamline University professor fired after showing a famous Islamic painting and some conservative Muslim students complained: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/08/us/h ... ammad.html

Florida University professors banned from discussing some topics related to racism: https://www.propublica.org/article/desa ... professors

Yale censors publication of books that "might" offend Muslims: https://www.thefire.org/news/campus-cen ... new-normal

Brandeis University professor reprimanded for racial harassment His crime? Discussing the epithet "wetback" in his Latin American studies class-to explain where the term came from and criticize its use. https://www.thefire.org/news/campus-cen ... new-normal

Tarleton State cancels student performance of an award winning play because it had a gay character: https://www.thefire.org/news/campus-cen ... new-normal

The examples are endless.

And if you were to write some sort of standard that, for example, tries to protect Jewish students from feeling uncomfortable or hearing messages that they may find offensive. Then I promise you the next group to employ that same exact standard will be LGBT students who will demand the censorship and removal of conservative evangelical groups on campus who might tell them that being LGBT is a sin. Because if Jewish or Muslim or conservative Christian students have a right not to feel uncomfortable on campus then so do LGBT students. And then we are back down the rabbit hole.

I think this is right and I think the piece I posted by Bari Weiss comes close to this idea as well. I think where we differ over the present issue is how far along the Free Speech-Incitement Spectrum are the various university, pro-Palestinian protests.

There are literally hundreds of universities in this country. I have seen a few examples of what you talk about I think at Penn. Which seemed to be the most egregious violator. And maybe a couple of other places. But for the most part students seem to be able to protest and voice their opinions around the country without straying into violent incitement and the like. Just like they have with every other issue going back to Vietnam and before. Social media seems to amplify this sort of thing way beyond the attention that it merits.

[barnhart]

HK, what is your position on universities that have adopted the Chicago statement into their free speech policies.

[temporal1]

One final note:
UVA didn’t allow Unite the Right to utilize their campus; it was the city of Charlotte that granted the permit.

The protestors took it upon themselves to march to the campus.
UVA cannot be held responsible as they weren’t prepared for it.

The same cannot be said for the countless colleges that have allowed repeated antisemitic protests to occur for the past 2 months.

i wrote:
Ben Shapiro addressed this regarding Skokie IL versus college campuses.
In addition to HK’s points, he explains how they’re not the same. i’ll try to locate it.

Found it. Fast forward to 6:15 mark:



Skokie IL resonates, as it’s not terribly far from me, AND, over decades of my life, i’ve been aware of how this largely Jewish (Chicago suburbs) community has, for sure, been visited with some extreme antisemite visitors, marching, etc.

When i was young, i EXPECTED huge backlash/blowups to result. In reality, the response seems to martch what Ben S (and Gad Saad) talk about, i.e., tolerating/protecting free speech (they might fear/hate) - the requirement of free speech.

i think, in a few words, Ben S describes the differences well. [“A few words” is wanted, right??]

In my life, i loathe rainbow flags/logos. Very offensive. i consider them blasphemy, knowing they represent carnal sin and pride.
How could any Christian understand otherwise?? Their purpose is not a hidden mystery. No double talk.

Yet, i have never touched anyone’s rainbow property, not damaged it, not destroyed it. i cringe inside, pray for children to be protected from it, instead of targeted by it, and move on. Those gaudy irrevant insulting flags have been deemed free speech, and much more: they represent human rights, are protected+promoted in gov, are flown on gov property with abandon.

Some wrongs have become so common, many have forgotten how much they hurt others. It’s “just normal.” Oblivious.

Calling for genocide of Jews was well on its way to doing likewise.
3 major university presidents reflected how far it had gotten - Literally, IN UNISON. Reciting scripts. Highly educated grown women.
Highly indoctrinated grown women.

i’m glad the central targets are AT THE TOP. This suggests HOPE for correction.

[Ken]

Some wrongs have become so common, many have forgotten how much they hurt others. It’s “just normal.” Oblivious.

Calling for genocide of Jews was well on its way to doing likewise.
3 major university presidents reflected how far it had gotten - Literally, IN UNISON. Reciting scripts. Highly educated grown women.
Highly indoctrinated grown women.

Except that isn't what actually happened.

There were no examples of students calling for genocide of Jews on any of those campuses. That didn't actually happen.

What we actually had happen is students calling for "Intifada" in some instances. And in other instances using the slogan "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free"

And then Congresswoman Stefanik ASSERTED in the hearing that those two slogans were calls for worldwide genocide of Jews. They are not. In fact, the Israeli Likud party uses the same exact "River to the Sea" slogan in its political campaigns. Does that mean they are a genocidal political party?

And so all three university presidents were perfectly correct in their statements that it depends on the context. Which it obviously does. In some contexts a call for Intifada might be a call for genocide. But in most contexts it is simply the common Arabic term used to describe the Palestinian struggle for a homeland. In essence it is the Palestinian equivalent to Zionism.

[temporal1]

.. whatever you say, Ken.

posted on previous page:


At least Liz M has the decency to admit wrong.

[Ken]

.. whatever you say, Ken.

At least Liz M has the decency to admit wrong.

Just because they were legally right, doesn't mean they were politically astute in their answers. The were deliberately led into a trap by Stefanik and then forced to resort to legalese in what were legally correct but politically damaging answers. I suppose it would have been better had they lied on the stand and gave the politically convenient answer?

Because what they gave was actually the precise legally correct answer to the question. How a university responds to provocative speech does depend on the context. What is said by a student in some late-night discussion with a few friends in a random dorm lounge or cafe is held to a different standard from a professor speaking to 500 students with a megaphone at some an officially sanctioned event on the main quad of campus. And what some random student puts on a flier and tacks to a bulletin board is different from what an officially sponsored student group puts on university-sponsored web page or university-published newsletter.