War in Gaza

[Ken]

I wouldn’t call Zionism “genocide” either, even though the movement has cost many Palestinians their lives. It seems prudent to separate political / ideological movements from calling them “genocides” when they aren’t.

The NYT has an excellent article out today on how Netanyahu funded and tolerated Hamas in order to discourage things he didn’t want such as a two state solution. Well worth a read.

Well as it turns out neither did/does Hamas...so they both got what they wanted until they didn't? I'm unconvinced by arguments that seek to place the blame of October 7th on Jews and Israel.

They aren't to blame for Hamas and 10/7 per se.

But there is plenty of evidence of: (1) overt actions by Netanyahu and Israel to empower Hamas over the years as part of a strategy to undermine a 2-state solution, and (2) incompetence and/or negligence by Israeli leaders in the defense of the southern border that made the 10/7 attack vastly worse and more deadly than it needed to be. Due in part by the military focus on propping up Israel's settlement program in the West Bank.

Both of these lines of argument have been made extensively in the Israeli press.

[Soloist]

A woman constantly flirting and dressing a particular way is not at fault for getting assaulted but they did things that created potential.
Likewise Israel.

[Ken]

A woman constantly flirting and dressing a particular way is not at fault for getting assaulted but they did things that created potential.
Likewise Israel.

A better analogy would be a guy who hangs out in the biker bar of a rival gang and acts obnoxious. Maybe he didn't start the latest bar fight but he shouldn't be surprised that it found him.

[Soloist]

A woman constantly flirting and dressing a particular way is not at fault for getting assaulted but they did things that created potential.
Likewise Israel.

A better analogy would be a guy who hangs out in the biker bar of a rival gang and acts obnoxious. Maybe he didn't start the latest bar fight but he shouldn't be surprised that it found him.

A better analogy would be the rabbit and the turtle both taking a nap on the freeway.

Okay… maybe that’s not a better analogy but it was funny

[temporal1]

I wouldn’t call Zionism “genocide” either, even though the movement has cost many Palestinians their lives. It seems prudent to separate political / ideological movements from calling them “genocides” when they aren’t.

The NYT has an excellent article out today on how Netanyahu funded and tolerated Hamas in order to discourage things he didn’t want such as a two state solution. Well worth a read.

Well as it turns out neither did/does Hamas...so they both got what they wanted until they didn't?

I'm unconvinced by arguments that seek to place the blame of October 7th on Jews and Israel.

If it does, 267 pages in the Ukraine thread, as well as $100++ billion of U.S. aid, alone, are a moot point.
viewtopic.php?t=4584



For many, in Ukraine, history did NOT matter. “Don’t go there.” Z is deemed a rock star.
For many, in Israel, chosen history is ALL that matters. N is deemed the evil one.

The seamless unapologetic flipping.

[HondurasKeiser]

I wouldn’t call Zionism “genocide” either, even though the movement has cost many Palestinians their lives. It seems prudent to separate political / ideological movements from calling them “genocides” when they aren’t.

The NYT has an excellent article out today on how Netanyahu funded and tolerated Hamas in order to discourage things he didn’t want such as a two state solution. Well worth a read.

Well as it turns out neither did/does Hamas...so they both got what they wanted until they didn't? I'm unconvinced by arguments that seek to place the blame of October 7th on Jews and Israel.

They aren't to blame for Hamas and 10/7 per se.

But there is plenty of evidence of: (1) overt actions by Netanyahu and Israel to empower Hamas over the years as part of a strategy to undermine a 2-state solution, and (2) incompetence and/or negligence by Israeli leaders in the defense of the southern border that made the 10/7 attack vastly worse and more deadly than it needed to be. Due in part by the military focus on propping up Israel's settlement program in the West Bank.

Both of these lines of argument have been made extensively in the Israeli press.

I think it's a fine thing to do a self-evaluation during and after the fact to figure out "how we dropped the ball" and "how we can avoid similar mistakes in the future". That's both healthy and normal and many countries do such things even when they win the war. It seems strange to me though that the NYT and certain posters here (Josh particularly) are dunking on Israel and low-key placing the onus of blame on Netanyahu/the Right/Israel-broadly for the evil actions of Hamas. Everyone is a IR specialist after-the-fact and everyone perfectly diagnoses the failures of those in charge once they've read a think piece or two. As it stands though, no one can know for sure what would or would not have actually prevented an October 7th. Perhaps not focusing on judicial reform would have prevented the tragedy but then again perhaps Hamas would have lived out their mission statement regardless the particular Prime Minister. What we can know is that Hamas was the group of people that took it upon themselves to slaughter, rape, torture and kidnap civilians - many of whom had welcomed Gazans into their homes for meals and work.

[temporal1]

I think it's a fine thing to do a self-evaluation during and after the fact to figure out "how we dropped the ball" and "how we can avoid similar mistakes in the future". That's both healthy and normal and many countries do such things even when they win the war. It seems strange to me though that the NYT and certain posters here (Josh particularly) are dunking on Israel and low-key placing the onus of blame on Netanyahu/the Right/Israel-broadly for the evil actions of Hamas. Everyone is a IR specialist after-the-fact and everyone perfectly diagnoses the failures of those in charge once they've read a think piece or two.

As it stands though, no one can know for sure what would or would not have actually prevented an October 7th.
Perhaps not focusing on judicial reform would have prevented the tragedy but then again perhaps Hamas would have lived out their mission statement regardless the particular Prime Minister.

What we can know is that Hamas was the group of people that took it upon themselves to slaughter, rape, torture and kidnap civilians - many of whom had welcomed Gazans into their homes for meals and work.

Well said.
(i think) it’s well to recognize, Christians, and moral others, will have a hard time wrapping their heads around dedicated authentic terrorists, whether isolated individuals (like the STUPID boys at Columbine) or organized and well-funded groups like Hamas.

i seriously doubt even those trained in the military can honestly grasp it, no matter how trained+prepared.

(i believe) that kind of dark pathology is in a different realm. It’s not of heaven or earth.

Prayers for their souls. They exist in the depths of darkness.

[Ken]

Well as it turns out neither did/does Hamas...so they both got what they wanted until they didn't? I'm unconvinced by arguments that seek to place the blame of October 7th on Jews and Israel.

They aren't to blame for Hamas and 10/7 per se.

But there is plenty of evidence of: (1) overt actions by Netanyahu and Israel to empower Hamas over the years as part of a strategy to undermine a 2-state solution, and (2) incompetence and/or negligence by Israeli leaders in the defense of the southern border that made the 10/7 attack vastly worse and more deadly than it needed to be. Due in part by the military focus on propping up Israel's settlement program in the West Bank.

Both of these lines of argument have been made extensively in the Israeli press.

I think it's a fine thing to do a self-evaluation during and after the fact to figure out "how we dropped the ball" and "how we can avoid similar mistakes in the future". That's both healthy and normal and many countries do such things even when they win the war. It seems strange to me though that the NYT and certain posters here (Josh particularly) are dunking on Israel and low-key placing the onus of blame on Netanyahu/the Right/Israel-broadly for the evil actions of Hamas. Everyone is a IR specialist after-the-fact and everyone perfectly diagnoses the failures of those in charge once they've read a think piece or two. As it stands though, no one can know for sure what would or would not have actually prevented an October 7th. Perhaps not focusing on judicial reform would have prevented the tragedy but then again perhaps Hamas would have lived out their mission statement regardless the particular Prime Minister. What we can know is that Hamas was the group of people that took it upon themselves to slaughter, rape, torture and kidnap civilians - many of whom had welcomed Gazans into their homes for meals and work.

From what I have read, there is enough evidence to conclude that the Israeli defense establishment completely dropped the ball on 10/7. And had they been doing their job competently, a bunch of Hamas fighters on gliders and motorcycles would not have gotten more than 15 ft from the border before being cut down en mass by helicopter gunships, tanks, armored personnel carriers, and all the other modern weaponry that Israel has at its disposal.

Why did that happen? Israel, like the US is a democracy with civilian control of the military. And many of Netanyahu's political loyalists and allies were in key positions of authority in the ministry of defense. We also know that they were focused on supporting settler expansion in the West Bank and that there were large numbers of troops deployed in the West Bank for this purpose rather than defending the southern border with Gaza. I'm sure the facts about that will continue to come out over time.

Had they did their job and actually protect the southern border in a competent manner then Israel would not be in the place it is today. Because the result would have been an unmitigated defeat for Hamas and victory for Israel. Israel could still have chosen to invade Gaza. But they would not have felt compelled to do so. They would have had a broader suite of policy options including more border crackdowns and that sort of thing.

So while Israel isn't responsible for 10/7. They are responsible for how the events played out and the corner that they have found themselves in. Which is destabilizing the entire middle east and setting back for a generation Israel's foreign policy objectives in the Arab world. For example, there is now probably zero chance of any sort of peace agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia when that was very much in the works prior to 10/7. And no chance of a second round of Abraham Accords anytime soon, perhaps for a generation. That is on Israel.

[Bootstrap]

We Are No Strangers to Human Suffering, but We’ve Seen Nothing Like the Siege of Gaza

Ms. Nunn is president and C.E.O. of CARE USA. Ms. McKenna is C.E.O. of Mercy Corps. Mr. Egeland is secretary general of the Norwegian Refugee Council. Ms. Maxman is president and C.E.O. of Oxfam America. Mr. Konyndyk is president of Refugees International. Ms. Soeripto is president and C.E.O. of Save the Children U.S.

We are no strangers to human suffering — to conflict, to natural disasters, to some of the world’s largest and gravest catastrophes. We were there when fighting erupted in Khartoum, Sudan. As bombs rained down on Ukraine. When earthquakes leveled southern Turkey and northern Syria. As the Horn of Africa faced its worst drought in years. The list goes on.

But as the leaders of some of the world’s largest global humanitarian organizations, we have seen nothing like the siege of Gaza. In the more than two months since the horrifying attack on Israel that killed more than 1,200 people and resulted in some 240 abductions, about 18,000 Gazans — including more than 7,500 children — have been killed, according to the Gazan health ministry. More children have been reported killed in this conflict than in all major global conflicts combined last year.

The atrocities committed by Hamas on Oct. 7 were unconscionable and depraved, and the taking and holding of hostages is abhorrent. The calls for their release are urgent and justified. But the right to self-defense does not and cannot require unleashing this humanitarian nightmare on millions of civilians. It is not a path to accountability, healing or peace. In no other war we can think of in this century have civilians been so trapped, without any avenue or option to escape to save themselves and their children.

[Josh]

I wouldn’t call Zionism “genocide” either, even though the movement has cost many Palestinians their lives. It seems prudent to separate political / ideological movements from calling them “genocides” when they aren’t.

The NYT has an excellent article out today on how Netanyahu funded and tolerated Hamas in order to discourage things he didn’t want such as a two state solution. Well worth a read.

Well as it turns out neither did/does Hamas...so they both got what they wanted until they didn't? I'm unconvinced by arguments that seek to place the blame of October 7th on Jews and Israel.

This is blaming it on Netanyahu, which millions of Jews and Israelis do.