Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:32 am
No, this was not a comment on your thoughts. But I think this runs deep in our culture. And I think you can see that in movies and TV shows. Heroes are smart, violent people who can win every fight. Fighting is the way to solve problems. Within 30 minutes or 90 minutes, depending on whether it's a TV show or a movie. Of course, in a series it can take much longer ....
Does anyone on MN subscribe to this policy?
So you would like to avoid discussing this too? Why not respond to what I am saying? Or not respond?
Do you have anything to say about the content of that paragraph as it relates to the topic of this thread? If not, no need to respond. If you do, I'm happy to hear your thoughts.
Does that actually improve the odds for the hostages?
Well you could try negotiating with the bear but if after a laying down of your gun he claims to have misplaced the baby and then attacks you...
If we care about the hostages at all, I think this is an important question. By mocking it, you avoid providing an answer or seriously discussing the question.
I can tell you would like to shoot a bear and save a baby. But I don't know how that answers my question.
How can you tell what I would like to do? You appear to me to be preternaturally incapable of not ascribing motives and thoughts to people when you discus ideas with them.
As it is, I wasn't mocking the bear analogy and as it was Soloist's and not yours, I wonder why you feel so protective of it. I was simply following the analogy as it actually played out in real life.
The cease-fire was established and Israel was open to maintaining the cease-fire and trading actual terrorists for hostages until all hostages were released (you laying down your rifle) but Hamas refused to say which hostages were still alive, where they were or who even would be released (the bear misplacing the baby). Then they broke the cease-fire by attacking IDF and Israeli citizens in downtown Tel Aviv (The bear attacks you).
It’s easy to banter words while people are held hostage.
The bear was an example of something we would do in place of something we would not do.
Perhaps a better question is CAM and other mission groups not paying ransom. What is the logical outcome of paying ransom?
Likewise, what will Israel give up this time that will not only be more next time.
I speak as the world might, you speak as though we can respond as a nation of Christians.
Clearly the problem lay before this attack on Israel ever begin and the nation wasn’t Christian then and it certainly isn’t now. Why foolishly expect them to act otherwise?
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:32 am
No, this was not a comment on your thoughts. But I think this runs deep in our culture. And I think you can see that in movies and TV shows. Heroes are smart, violent people who can win every fight. Fighting is the way to solve problems. Within 30 minutes or 90 minutes, depending on whether it's a TV show or a movie. Of course, in a series it can take much longer ....
Does anyone on MN subscribe to this policy?
So you would like to avoid discussing this too? Why not respond to what I am saying? Or not respond?
Do you have anything to say about the content of that paragraph as it relates to the topic of this thread? If not, no need to respond. If you do, I'm happy to hear your thoughts.
I don't ascribe to anything you wrote in the above paragraph. After more than 12 years on MN/MD I should think it unnecessary to have to prove to you or anyone else here my nonresistant bona fides or the fact that I don't believe that "Fighting is the way to solve problems".
Do you see anyone else on MN subscribing to what you wrote in the above paragraph?
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:16 am
Well they haven't yet. Do you have thoughts on how else to rescue the remaining 137 hostages beyond a nebulous "find a negotiating partner that isn't Hamas"?
I don't subscribe to that policy either.
I am skeptical of negotiating with baby-stealing bears.
OK, but you are saying you know the answer, and mocking me for having a question. Mocking is not an answer. And you are not accurately portraying me, either.
So please tell me what your answer is - how are you going to get the hostages back? How will you make sure they aren't killed when you try to invade? How do you know where they are? I mean, bears and babies are great for a children's book, but they don't answer all the questions here.
Come on. HK wasn't mocking you. Take a deep breath and grow up.
Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:47 am
It’s easy to banter words while people are held hostage.
The bear was an example of something we would do in place of something we would not do.
Perhaps a better question is CAM and other mission groups not paying ransom. What is the logical outcome of paying ransom?
Likewise, what will Israel give up this time that will not only be more next time.
I speak as the world might, you speak as though we can respond as a nation of Christians.
Clearly the problem lay before this attack on Israel ever begin and the nation wasn’t Christian then and it certainly isn’t now. Why foolishly expect them to act otherwise?
I'm really not expecting either Israel nor Hamas to act like a bunch of Christians. My question really was a purely secular strategy question: is there really a military scenario that amounts to rescuing the hostages? I assume they are scattered in various locations, some may no longer even be in Gaza.
Same goes for the military strategy question. As a Christian, military strategy isn't really my problem. But what exactly is the goal of all this violence? Is it mostly retaliation and revenge? Or is it aimed at achieving some specific objective?
I don't think the United States defined military objectives in either Afghanistan or Iraq. We didn't clearly say what kind of peace we wanted to leave behind at the end of the war. In past wars, I think that has often been true for Israel too, nothing gets resolved. Sure, Israel is a secular state and will do what secular states tend to do. Hamas is the violent wing of a persecuted minority and will do what violent wings of persecuted minorities do. That's to be expected, on both sides. But after all these years, I'd like to see a way off the hamster wheel.
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:31 am
Where did I say I knew the answer?
Well, you mocked my question here:
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:49 am
Well you could try negotiating with the bear but if after a laying down of your gun he claims to have misplaced the baby and then attacks you...
If we care about the hostages at all, I think this is an important question. By mocking it, you avoid providing an answer or seriously discussing the question.
I can tell you would like to shoot a bear and save a baby. But I don't know how that answers my question.
How can you tell what I would like to do? You appear to me to be preternaturally incapable of not ascribing motives and thoughts to people when you discus ideas with them.
As it is, I wasn't mocking the bear analogy and as it was Soloist's and not yours, I wonder why you feel so protective of it. I was simply following the analogy as it actually played out in real life.
I didn't say you were mocking Soloist's bear analogy. To me, your response seemed to be mocking my question, while implying a bunch of things that were simply not in my question at all and not addressing it.
Perhaps I misunderstood? How should I interpret your post as a response to the question I asked?
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:46 pm
I'm really not expecting either Israel nor Hamas to act like a bunch of Christians. My question really was a purely secular strategy question: is there really a military scenario that amounts to rescuing the hostages? I assume they are scattered in various locations, some may no longer even be in Gaza.
Same goes for the military strategy question. As a Christian, military strategy isn't really my problem. But what exactly is the goal of all this violence? Is it mostly retaliation and revenge? Or is it aimed at achieving some specific objective?
I have already stated as much as any of us could know. We can continue to banter and I can continue to answer you. It doesn’t change the fact that you’re pushing at a particular opinion.
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:46 pm
I'm really not expecting either Israel nor Hamas to act like a bunch of Christians. My question really was a purely secular strategy question: is there really a military scenario that amounts to rescuing the hostages? I assume they are scattered in various locations, some may no longer even be in Gaza.
Same goes for the military strategy question. As a Christian, military strategy isn't really my problem. But what exactly is the goal of all this violence? Is it mostly retaliation and revenge? Or is it aimed at achieving some specific objective?
I have already stated as much as any of us could know. We can continue to banter and I can continue to answer you. It doesn’t change the fact that you’re pushing at a particular opinion.
Actually, my question was simply a question. There is no "fact" that I was pushing at a particular opinion, especially on the hostages question. I don't know the answer to my question. I'm guessing none of us do.
If we care about the hostages at all, I think this is an important question. By mocking it, you avoid providing an answer or seriously discussing the question.
I can tell you would like to shoot a bear and save a baby. But I don't know how that answers my question.
How can you tell what I would like to do? You appear to me to be preternaturally incapable of not ascribing motives and thoughts to people when you discus ideas with them.
As it is, I wasn't mocking the bear analogy and as it was Soloist's and not yours, I wonder why you feel so protective of it. I was simply following the analogy as it actually played out in real life.
I didn't say you were mocking Soloist's bear analogy. To me, your response seemed to be mocking my question, while implying a bunch of things that were simply not in my question at all and not addressing it.
Perhaps I misunderstood? How should I interpret your post as a response to the question I asked?
I was following the analogy to show that no matter what happened, the odds were against the hostages because they were in the hands of bad-faith actors.