War in Gaza

[ken_sylvania]

Israel attacks with bombs, and people say "Why do they need to use bombs? They should just go in and take out the Hamas fighters one-by-one." (somehow Ernie, I thought this was you saying this a couple weeks ago)

Israel sends in the infantry to "clean up" and people say "Why do they need to send in the infantry, why not use bombs?"

US says "We have smart weapons" and then uses their "precision bomb" to blow up a car containing a suspected militant only to find out that he works for a non-profit aid organization and that his "weapons" consisted of water jugs.

I'm not convinced you are accurately summarizing what anyone here is saying.

Speaking for myself, I am mostly focused on these questions:

1. What is the military objective? Is there one? Is there a plan to achieve it?
2. What is the cost to civilians?
3. Is this creating new conditions that will make it even harder to achieve peace?

I don't think I'm offering simple, glib, sure-fire solutions based on nothing at all. But I don't understand how 2,000 pound bombs in residential neighborhoods is a reasonable way to (1) take out Hamas or (2) avoid such blatant disregard for the lives of innocents.

I don't understand the complete confidence some people seem to have in the effectiveness of that as a military solution. Or maybe I'm misreading what others are saying. But I think there are real limits to what you can accomplish this way. I don't think we won our wars or achieved any clear military objectives in Afghanistan or Iraq. There may well be something that I'm missing, but I don't yet understand how Israel expects to do that here.

I'm not convinced that you are accurately summarizing what I am saying.

[Soloist]

I'm not convinced you are accurately summarizing what anyone here is saying.

Speaking for myself, I am mostly focused on these questions:

1. What is the military objective? Is there one? Is there a plan to achieve it?
2. What is the cost to civilians?
3. Is this creating new conditions that will make it even harder to achieve peace?

I think they have just as much sound military objectives as the US military did invading Iraq or Afghanistan. Meaning I don’t think they’ve really thought through it very well.

I don't think I'm offering simple, glib, sure-fire solutions based on nothing at all. But I don't understand how 2,000 pound bombs in residential neighborhoods is a reasonable way to (1) take out Hamas or (2) avoid such blatant disregard for the lives of innocents.

I certainly didn’t say it was. I explained the reasons that may have been involved. As far as Israel goes, seems like they will use any excuse to get rid of them.

I don't understand the complete confidence some people seem to have in the effectiveness of that as a military solution. Or maybe I'm misreading what others are saying. But I think there are real limits to what you can accomplish this way. I don't think we won our wars or achieved any clear military objectives in Afghanistan or Iraq. There may well be something that I'm missing, but I don't yet understand how Israel expects to do that here.

I have no confidence they can accomplish A relatively vague goal… I think the only way they can accomplish to remove Gaza as a threat is to remove everyone there. If they remove everyone to another location then it will simply be another location that’s the threat. If they kill everyone they’ll probably make threats elsewhere. So effectively they have a no-win situation. This is sort of their Vietnam except… we invaded, they were attacked.

[Bootstrap]

I'm not convinced that you are accurately summarizing what I am saying.

OK. I apologize - I was trying, I probably got it wrong. Care to clarify?

[ken_sylvania]

I'm not convinced that you are accurately summarizing what I am saying.

OK. I apologize - I was trying, I probably got it wrong. Care to clarify?

Where you got it wrong was when you assumed that I was trying to summarize what people on MN are saying.

[Bootstrap]

I'm not convinced that you are accurately summarizing what I am saying.

OK. I apologize - I was trying, I probably got it wrong. Care to clarify?

Where you got it wrong was when you assumed that I was trying to summarize what people on MN are saying.

Got it. Thanks.

[Ernie]

Israel attacks with bombs, and people say "Why do they need to use bombs? They should just go in and take out the Hamas fighters one-by-one." (somehow Ernie, I thought this was you saying this a couple weeks ago)

Israel sends in the infantry to "clean up" and people say "Why do they need to send in the infantry, why not use bombs?"

US says "We have smart weapons" and then uses their "precision bomb" to blow up a car containing a suspected militant only to find out that he works for a non-profit aid organization and that his "weapons" consisted of water jugs.

My underlying question is, "Why is Israel willing to sacrifice soldiers in a ground invasion and is this necessary?"

One sub question is, "Why don't they just secure their border and shoot down rockets?"
That question was answered by several people.

A second sub question is, "Why a ground invasion instead of lobbing bombs or precise weapons?"
That question is being answered as well.

Several weeks ago I wondered why Israel used bombs instead of precise weapons.
That question has also been answered.

So I don't think I have anymore questions at this point other than the underlying question.

[Josh]

For the underlying question, the best answer is that empires often seem willing to sacrifice lots of ground troops for dubious ends. For some examples, you can look at Russia and Ukraine right now, both of which are sending legions of men into a meat grinder, with neither side really achieving much of significant at all. Or American in Afghanistan; whilst casualties weren't that high, many young men and women did get blown up by IEDs and maimed or killed, and ultimately the invasion was a complete failure.

[Soloist]

My underlying question is, "Why is Israel willing to sacrifice soldiers in a ground invasion and is this necessary?"

If a baby was taken by a bear and you had the possibility of saving the baby would you not go after the bear?
It’s easy with rifles of course but the scenario is slightly relatable.

We of course do not resist with weapons, but it is very common to expect revenge and if Israel did no invasion, they would look weak. It’s already concluded that bombs cannot take care of Hamas and have substantial civilian casualties.
Your options as Israel’s leader, 1: dig in and try to move past the lost civilians taken captive and deal with the almost assuredly lost election.
2: bomb Gaza and say it’s impossible to recover the lost and basically make a token gesture of revenge which doesn’t actually do anything then make your nation look bad for targeting civilians and you might still lose the next election.
3: bomb key points, invade to try to recover the lost either as living, or bodies and leave. Resulting with a possible win for your political power at home with little serious political loss internationally
4: attempt to destroy Gaza with land invasion and bombing campaign to get rid of Hamas and if you recover some victims great. Substantial political fall out internationally, at home you look strong.
I would say they are between 3 and 4.
I think you need to understand that political choices don’t make sense to a Kingdom minded Christian but from a secular standpoint, they have to respond forcefully.

[Josh]

Politically, a lot of voters expect/want an invasion, even if it's a bad idea (particularly the extreme right-wing coalition that helped form Netanyahu's government). You could see a similar scenario after 9/11 in America when many Americans wanted us to go to war with... basically anybody.

[Bootstrap]

My underlying question is, "Why is Israel willing to sacrifice soldiers in a ground invasion and is this necessary?"

If a baby was taken by a bear and you had the possibility of saving the baby would you not go after the bear?
It’s easy with rifles of course but the scenario is slightly relatable.

Does that actually improve the odds for the hostages?