AndersonD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:55 am
Also, Ken, what leads you to believe that the Hebrews believed the earth was flat and static?
There are various verses that talk about the corners of the earth and how it is static and immobile. For example:
Psalm 104: He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.
1 Chronicles 16:30: Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Of course we know that the earth is constantly moving. The surfaces of the earth itself are constantly moving and changing. While at the same time it is rotating on its axis at over 1,000 mph (at the equator) and orbiting the sun at 67,000 mph. While the entire solar system is spinning around the Milky Way galaxy at approximately 448,000 mph. But more importantly, the order of the creation narrative in Genesis only makes sense from the perspective of a flat geocentric earth at the center of the universe.
Maybe the writers were speaking metaphorically? We still have the expression..."going to the four corners of the earth" which isn't a literal expression, but we understand the idea. So, I am not going to make an assumption from these verses that the Hebrews believed in a flat, static, geocentric earth.
"The creation order only makes sense from a flat, geocentric viewpoint." I will have to mull over this statement.
AndersonD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:55 am
Also, Ken, what leads you to believe that the Hebrews believed the earth was flat and static?
There are various verses that talk about the corners of the earth and how it is static and immobile. For example:
Psalm 104: He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.
1 Chronicles 16:30: Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Of course we know that the earth is constantly moving. The surfaces of the earth itself are constantly moving and changing. While at the same time it is rotating on its axis at over 1,000 mph (at the equator) and orbiting the sun at 67,000 mph. While the entire solar system is spinning around the Milky Way galaxy at approximately 448,000 mph. But more importantly, the order of the creation narrative in Genesis only makes sense from the perspective of a flat geocentric earth at the center of the universe.
Maybe the writers were speaking metaphorically? We still have the expression..."going to the four corners of the earth" which isn't a literal expression, but we understand the idea. So, I am not going to make an assumption from these verses that the Hebrews believed in a flat, static, geocentric earth.
"The creation order only makes sense from a flat, geocentric viewpoint." I will have to mull over this statement.
I think there’s more than one way to view the expression the sun rose and set. Likewise there’s more than one way to describe the firmament.
What I have asked Ken before on is the miracle described where the sun moved backwards. It seems Ken has a very low opinion of biblical miracles.
AndersonD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:55 am
Also, Ken, what leads you to believe that the Hebrews believed the earth was flat and static?
There are various verses that talk about the corners of the earth and how it is static and immobile. For example:
Psalm 104: He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.
1 Chronicles 16:30: Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Of course we know that the earth is constantly moving. The surfaces of the earth itself are constantly moving and changing. While at the same time it is rotating on its axis at over 1,000 mph (at the equator) and orbiting the sun at 67,000 mph. While the entire solar system is spinning around the Milky Way galaxy at approximately 448,000 mph. But more importantly, the order of the creation narrative in Genesis only makes sense from the perspective of a flat geocentric earth at the center of the universe.
Maybe the writers were speaking metaphorically? We still have the expression..."going to the four corners of the earth" which isn't a literal expression, but we understand the idea. So, I am not going to make an assumption from these verses that the Hebrews believed in a flat, static, geocentric earth.
"The creation order only makes sense from a flat, geocentric viewpoint." I will have to mull over this statement.
Well yes, I think the entire Genesis creation story is written metaphorically to explain creation to a pre-modern Bronze Age culture in a way that would make sense for them. And we err by reading it literally in the modern age. Why would you assume that only the astronomical aspects of the Old Testament are metaphorical and not the biological as well?
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
There are various verses that talk about the corners of the earth and how it is static and immobile. For example:
Psalm 104: He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.
1 Chronicles 16:30: Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Of course we know that the earth is constantly moving. The surfaces of the earth itself are constantly moving and changing. While at the same time it is rotating on its axis at over 1,000 mph (at the equator) and orbiting the sun at 67,000 mph. While the entire solar system is spinning around the Milky Way galaxy at approximately 448,000 mph. But more importantly, the order of the creation narrative in Genesis only makes sense from the perspective of a flat geocentric earth at the center of the universe.
Maybe the writers were speaking metaphorically? We still have the expression..."going to the four corners of the earth" which isn't a literal expression, but we understand the idea. So, I am not going to make an assumption from these verses that the Hebrews believed in a flat, static, geocentric earth.
"The creation order only makes sense from a flat, geocentric viewpoint." I will have to mull over this statement.
I think there’s more than one way to view the expression the sun rose and set. Likewise there’s more than one way to describe the firmament.
What I have asked Ken before on is the miracle described where the sun moved backwards. It seems Ken has a very low opinion of biblical miracles.
The sun doesn't actually rise and set (or go forwards or backwards). It is stationary (with respect to the earth). It is the earth that is moving on its axis which creates the illusion that the sun is rising and setting and moving across the sky.
So in the miracle that you referenced. The sun would not have stopped and move backwards. The earth itself would have stopped rotating and then rotated backwards. But of course the authors of that verse could not have known that, since as I pointed out, their world view was that of a flat earth in which the celestial bodies move across the firmament. That verse is entirely consistent with a flat earth geocentric view of the universe just like the Genesis story is. But entirely inconsistent with our modern understanding of a spherical earth rotating on its axis and orbiting the sun.
The Hebrews like all the ancient peoples of the middle east believed that the sky was a solid dome above a flat earth in which the sun, moon, and stars were embedded. And all the Old Testament verses that reference the earth or creation are consistent with this viewpoint. It would have looked something like this:
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:00 pm
The sun doesn't actually rise and set (or go forwards or backwards). It is stationary (with respect to the earth). It is the earth that is moving on its axis which creates the illusion that the sun is rising and setting and moving across the sky.
So in the miracle that you referenced. The sun would not have stopped and move backwards. The earth itself would have stopped rotating and then rotated backwards. But of course the authors of that verse could not have known that, since as I pointed out, their world view was that of a flat earth in which the celestial bodies move across the firmament. That verse is entirely consistent with a flat earth geocentric view of the universe just like the Genesis story is. But entirely inconsistent with our modern understanding of a spherical earth rotating on its axis and orbiting the sun.
You believe it’s possible for the earth to rotate backwards or even stop rotating for a miracle, but you don’t believe it’s possible for the sun to have moved?
It is entirely inconsistent to believe the earth could stop spinning. It is entirely inconsistent to believe Jesus rose from the dead.
It is entirely consistent to say the sun went backwards when in fact we’re talking about the earth. Likewise from the observer point of view, there’s nothing wrong with describing it so. You were trying to conflate two different things, what the eye sees, and what reality is. In the old testament much is described from the persons point of view. Any one given point on our planet could be described as flat to the eye (exceptions for pointy mountains)
AndersonD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:55 am
Also, Ken, what leads you to believe that the Hebrews believed the earth was flat and static?
There are various verses that talk about the corners of the earth and how it is static and immobile. For example:
Psalm 104: He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.
1 Chronicles 16:30: Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Of course we know that the earth is constantly moving. The surfaces of the earth itself are constantly moving and changing. While at the same time it is rotating on its axis at over 1,000 mph (at the equator) and orbiting the sun at 67,000 mph. While the entire solar system is spinning around the Milky Way galaxy at approximately 448,000 mph. But more importantly, the order of the creation narrative in Genesis only makes sense from the perspective of a flat geocentric earth at the center of the universe.
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:00 pm
The sun doesn't actually rise and set (or go forwards or backwards). It is stationary (with respect to the earth). It is the earth that is moving on its axis which creates the illusion that the sun is rising and setting and moving across the sky.
So in the miracle that you referenced. The sun would not have stopped and move backwards. The earth itself would have stopped rotating and then rotated backwards. But of course the authors of that verse could not have known that, since as I pointed out, their world view was that of a flat earth in which the celestial bodies move across the firmament. That verse is entirely consistent with a flat earth geocentric view of the universe just like the Genesis story is. But entirely inconsistent with our modern understanding of a spherical earth rotating on its axis and orbiting the sun.
You believe it’s possible for the earth to rotate backwards or even stop rotating for a miracle, but you don’t believe it’s possible for the sun to have moved?
It is entirely inconsistent to believe the earth could stop spinning. It is entirely inconsistent to believe Jesus rose from the dead.
It is entirely consistent to say the sun went backwards when in fact we’re talking about the earth. Likewise from the observer point of view, there’s nothing wrong with describing it so. You were trying to conflate two different things, what the eye sees, and what reality is. In the old testament much is described from the persons point of view. Any one given point on our planet could be described as flat to the eye (exceptions for pointy mountains)
I'm simply pointing out that the miracle you cite is consistent with a flat earth viewpoint in which the celestial bodies move across the sky. Whether or not it actually happened is besides the point. If the author of the book of Joshua had a more modern and scientifically correct view of the earth and heavens he would have described the events differently.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
AndersonD wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:55 am
Also, Ken, what leads you to believe that the Hebrews believed the earth was flat and static?
There are various verses that talk about the corners of the earth and how it is static and immobile. For example:
Psalm 104: He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.
1 Chronicles 16:30: Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Of course we know that the earth is constantly moving. The surfaces of the earth itself are constantly moving and changing. While at the same time it is rotating on its axis at over 1,000 mph (at the equator) and orbiting the sun at 67,000 mph. While the entire solar system is spinning around the Milky Way galaxy at approximately 448,000 mph. But more importantly, the order of the creation narrative in Genesis only makes sense from the perspective of a flat geocentric earth at the center of the universe.
How do we know that the earth isn't stationary?
Astronomical observation and science.
And GPS now gives us actual direct observations of plate tectonics and the movements of the continental plates. We now know, for example, that North America is moving away from Europe at about 4 cm per year. We can measure that directly.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
There are various verses that talk about the corners of the earth and how it is static and immobile. For example:
Psalm 104: He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.
1 Chronicles 16:30: Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Of course we know that the earth is constantly moving. The surfaces of the earth itself are constantly moving and changing. While at the same time it is rotating on its axis at over 1,000 mph (at the equator) and orbiting the sun at 67,000 mph. While the entire solar system is spinning around the Milky Way galaxy at approximately 448,000 mph. But more importantly, the order of the creation narrative in Genesis only makes sense from the perspective of a flat geocentric earth at the center of the universe.
Maybe the writers were speaking metaphorically? We still have the expression..."going to the four corners of the earth" which isn't a literal expression, but we understand the idea. So, I am not going to make an assumption from these verses that the Hebrews believed in a flat, static, geocentric earth.
"The creation order only makes sense from a flat, geocentric viewpoint." I will have to mull over this statement.
Well yes, I think the entire Genesis creation story is written metaphorically to explain creation to a pre-modern Bronze Age culture in a way that would make sense for them. And we err by reading it literally in the modern age. Why would you assume that only the astronomical aspects of the Old Testament are metaphorical and not the biological as well?
I am simply stating that these verses don't indicate that the Hebrews believed the earth was flat and geocentric. We don't know that definitively.
And am I correct in thinking that from the evolutionary perspectives you hold, earlier civilizations were more primitive?
There are various verses that talk about the corners of the earth and how it is static and immobile. For example:
Psalm 104: He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.
1 Chronicles 16:30: Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Of course we know that the earth is constantly moving. The surfaces of the earth itself are constantly moving and changing. While at the same time it is rotating on its axis at over 1,000 mph (at the equator) and orbiting the sun at 67,000 mph. While the entire solar system is spinning around the Milky Way galaxy at approximately 448,000 mph. But more importantly, the order of the creation narrative in Genesis only makes sense from the perspective of a flat geocentric earth at the center of the universe.
How do we know that the earth isn't stationary?
Astronomical observation and science.
And GPS now gives us actual direct observations of plate tectonics and the movements of the continental plates. We now know, for example, that North America is moving away from Europe at about 4 cm per year. We can measure that directly.
How does that tell us whether the earth is stationary and the rest of the universe is whirling around it?
