Why are Christian businesses targeted .....

[Bootstrap]

How did Christianity get caught up in this victimhood identity? I don't think it's a fruit of the Spirit. I think other religious groups are much more persecuted, and Christians are often in denial of the persecution that Jews and Muslims face here, which is worse than what we face.

Why is it a bad thing to persecute false religions? Do we have some duty as Christians to uphold false, satanic teaching?

I was pointing to hate crime statistics. I think hate crimes are a bad thing. I don't think Christians should endorse or studiously ignore hate crimes against other groups. If we do, I think that will eventually come back to bite us. In American law, the same rules apply to hate crimes against Jews or Muslims and hate crimes against Mennonites.

[Bootstrap]

Here's the part people seem to be ignoring:

What about the Kingdom of God? Is it relevant? How do Christians act in a country like the one we live in? How does that affect the way we are seen? And the way the Gospel is seen? Seems like we mostly seek last the Kingdom of God. It's the last thing we turn to in order to frame our understanding. And that's a shame.

Suppose we limited ourselves to things we see Jesus and the early church do in the Bible. How did they face situations like this? By claiming a victimhood identity?

Suppose we compare persecution in the United States to (1) persecution of Christians in other places and times or (2) persecution of other religious groups in the United States, or (3) groups persecuted for their race rather than religion. Are we really such victims?

If these are not the things we are discussing, we are saying the Kingdom of God is irrelevant. If we are promoting the same talking points as the political outrage machine, we are saying that's what is real and relevant.

[Soloist]

Here's the part people seem to be ignoring:

Until you actually can accept that you yourself are ignoring it, I doubt you’ll get anywhere.

[Josh]

I was pointing to hate crime statistics. I think hate crimes are a bad thing. I don't think Christians should endorse or studiously ignore hate crimes against other groups. If we do, I think that will eventually come back to bite us. In American law, the same rules apply to hate crimes against Jews or Muslims and hate crimes against Mennonites.

In other words, a pragmatic argument, which is the domain of making compromised political decisions for the "greater good".

Hate crime laws are bad laws, period. If murder or violence is wrong, it's wrong. What, exactly, kind of difference does it make if it's a "hate crime"? The only reason to care about these distinctions is because one has adopted the modern state civic religion that worships "diversity" and considers these crimes to be crimes against the temple of "diversity", yet mysteriously is blind to things like the mass slaughter of unborn babies or the generally absurdly high murder rate America has in general.

Barely any murders in America are hate crimes. Although I consider it pretty hateful to get an abortion to babies.

[Bootstrap]

Here's the part people seem to be ignoring:

Until you actually can accept that you yourself are ignoring it, I doubt you’ll get anywhere.

I think I raise these questions as much as anyone here. I think I do that because I really do care about these things and consider them important. And I really would expect an Anabaptist / Mennonite forum to be a place where these questions are central.

Why drown those questions out, repeatedly? Even if you don't believe I'm 100% consistent, and I'm sure none of us is, why not discuss how you would go about doing it right? Why do people constantly take attention away from the Kingdom of God and these questions?

Show me how you would address these questions better. Take it out of the political outrage frame and put it into the Kingdom of God frame. Discuss it as a Christian.

[Soloist]

Here's the part people seem to be ignoring:

Until you actually can accept that you yourself are ignoring it, I doubt you’ll get anywhere.

I think I raise these questions as much as anyone here. I think I do that because I really do care about these things and consider them important. And I really would expect an Anabaptist / Mennonite forum to be a place where these questions are central.

Why drown those questions out, repeatedly? Even if you don't believe I'm 100% consistent, and I'm sure none of us is, why not discuss how you would go about doing it right? Why do people constantly take attention away from the Kingdom of God and these questions?

Show me how you would address these questions better. Take it out of the political outrage frame and put it into the Kingdom of God frame. Discuss it as a Christian.

Why drowned out people asking you the same question you ask of others?
I don’t get involved in politics but you have expressed a side and refused to answer your own questions. You seem to suffer from selective reading blindness or you just simply chose to ignore fair questions. Take it from Scripture, the golden rule and apply it to this situation.

[Soloist]

A focus on the Kingdom of God doesn’t waste time on either side of the “outrage machine” knowing both oppose God.

[Ken]

How did Christianity get caught up in this victimhood identity? I don't think it's a fruit of the Spirit. I think other religious groups are much more persecuted, and Christians are often in denial of the persecution that Jews and Muslims face here, which is worse than what we face.

Why is it a bad thing to persecute false religions? Do we have some duty as Christians to uphold false, satanic teaching?

Seriously Josh?

Maybe because we (Americans at least) live under a Constitution in which the First Amendment guarantees everyone freedom of religion and the freedom to practice their faith as they see fit. And most other civilized western nations have similar guarantees of religious freedom. The same laws that protect your freedom to worship as you see fit also protect everyone else, including those who you might think have false teachings.

Perhaps you would have been happier living under the Spanish Inquisition when certain Christians wielded the power of the state to persecute others they accused of heresy? It sounds like Tomás de Torquemada would have been your guy.

[Bootstrap]

I think I raise these questions as much as anyone here. I think I do that because I really do care about these things and consider them important. And I really would expect an Anabaptist / Mennonite forum to be a place where these questions are central.

Why drown those questions out, repeatedly? Even if you don't believe I'm 100% consistent, and I'm sure none of us is, why not discuss how you would go about doing it right? Why do people constantly take attention away from the Kingdom of God and these questions?

Show me how you would address these questions better. Take it out of the political outrage frame and put it into the Kingdom of God frame. Discuss it as a Christian.

Why drowned out people asking you the same question you ask of others?
I don’t get involved in politics but you have expressed a side and refused to answer your own questions. You seem to suffer from selective reading blindness or you just simply chose to ignore fair questions. Take it from Scripture, the golden rule and apply it to this situation.

You will really have to explain to me how I am engaging in the political outrage machine here, especially in this thread.

I think I generally say that we should let election boards determine elections, let courts do their cases, etc. I say we should not trust inflammatory internet posts, I recommend critical thinking skills and looking for the facts. I don't think that's political outrage stuff. If you see particular posts of mine as encouraging outrage, I would appreciate you pointing that out at the time. I'm happy to learn specific things from you or others. Be specific. Current posts in any given thread we are discussing at the time, please, quoting the text.

But without that ... I have to say that speaking the truth when there is pushback is often a good move for Christians. The truth that people do not want to hear is often an important truth to say.

[Josh]

Seriously Josh?

Maybe because we (Americans at least) live under a Constitution in which the First Amendment guarantees everyone freedom of religion and the freedom to practice their faith as they see fit. And most other civilized western nations have similar guarantees of religious freedom. The same laws that protect your freedom to worship as you see fit also protect everyone else, including those who you might think have false teachings.

When the Constitution was drafted, "freedom of religion" meant freedom to practice a particular Christian sect. This is universal historical fact. No serious person in the 1700s thought America needed to be some kind of free-for-all full of Hindus, atheists, Buddhists, and so forth.

An example is that in the early days of America, atheists weren't seen to hold office and weren't allowed to hold office, despite the "first amendment".

Perhaps you would have been happier living under the Spanish Inquisition when certain Christians wielded the power of the state to persecute others they accused of heresy? It sounds like Tomás de Torquemada would have been your guy.

No I didn't say that. I simply say that I shouldn't care about promoting and protecting religions which are full of falsehood and are inspired by satanic, demonic forces. And it's not Christians who are usually engaging in this kind of persecution, either. It's, in fact, usually various heathen sects who are busy trying to kill each other. Mennonites, in particular, are not known for engaging in violent persecution of other faiths.