Progressive Conservative Mennonite Churches

[cooper]

Why is this such a lightning-rod issue?

I mean none of us are really going to know the actual answer until the time comes anyway. How does this affect how anyone lives their life among the living? And honestly, how often is it even going to come up in church sermons?

Believing the unsaved will cease to exist is a very different concept from being physically tortured for all of eternity. How else will they terrify young teenagers into becoming Christians?

[Soloist]

Even if he believes in ETC, but acknowledges that there are some verses that could use further discussion, his credentials are withdrawn. He is required to state that the New Testament only teaches ETC and that the NT does not make any room for CI.

This is completely unacceptable to me. Whenever someone is required to twist Scripture to fit dogma, they have lost their way.

[Ken]

Why is this such a lightning-rod issue?

I mean none of us are really going to know the actual answer until the time comes anyway. How does this affect how anyone lives their life among the living? And honestly, how often is it even going to come up in church sermons?

Believing the unsaved will cease to exist is a very different concept from being physically tortured for all of eternity. How else will they terrify young teenagers into becoming Christians?

I suppose. Although I think the better question is what do these two different viewpoints say about one's view of God?

In any event, I don't ever recall having these points of theology being emphasized (or ever even coming up) in the more mainstream less conservative churches that I have mostly attended.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I heard yesterday that in at least some BMA churches, ordained persons are being asked what their doctrinal position is on Eternal Conscious Torment vs. Conditional Immortality. If an ordained person makes any room for CI, his credentials are withdrawn. Even if he believes in ETC, but acknowledges that there are some verses that could use further discussion, his credentials are withdrawn. He is required to state that the New Testament only teaches ETC and that the NT does not make any room for CI.

Is what I heard correct? And is this test being applied to all BMA pastors, or is this regional?

I have heard roughly the same thing, but I heard it from my Indiana connections.

This sort of thing makes its rounds in the evangelical world from time to time. I remember a prof. At one of the C&MA colleges being fired for just such teaching. It was in the early 90s.

[Josh]

I heard yesterday that in at least some BMA churches, ordained persons are being asked what their doctrinal position is on Eternal Conscious Torment vs. Conditional Immortality. If an ordained person makes any room for CI, his credentials are withdrawn. Even if he believes in ETC, but acknowledges that there are some verses that could use further discussion, his credentials are withdrawn. He is required to state that the New Testament only teaches ETC and that the NT does not make any room for CI.

Is what I heard correct? And is this test being applied to all BMA pastors, or is this regional?

I have heard roughly the same thing, but I heard it from my Indiana connections.

This sort of thing makes its rounds in the evangelical world from time to time. I remember a prof. At one of the C&MA colleges being fired for just such teaching. It was in the early 90s.

To be fair, I have come to the conclusion that CI is heresy, and the path that I have seen everyone I have known who has followed this to its conclusion (with a handful of exceptions such as our friend gcdonner) is eventually they stop believing in hell at all… then become a Marcionist, thinking the OT God was evil, then eventually lose faith in heaven, too, and God himself, and abandon sound doctrine.

I would not fault BMA at all for expecting ministers to “hold fast to the doctrine once delivered to the saints”. If it’s really important to believe in annihilationism, go join the Chhrch of God of Abrahamic Faith or something.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I heard yesterday that in at least some BMA churches, ordained persons are being asked what their doctrinal position is on Eternal Conscious Torment vs. Conditional Immortality. If an ordained person makes any room for CI, his credentials are withdrawn. Even if he believes in ETC, but acknowledges that there are some verses that could use further discussion, his credentials are withdrawn. He is required to state that the New Testament only teaches ETC and that the NT does not make any room for CI.

Is what I heard correct? And is this test being applied to all BMA pastors, or is this regional?

I have heard roughly the same thing, but I heard it from my Indiana connections.

This sort of thing makes its rounds in the evangelical world from time to time. I remember a prof. At one of the C&MA colleges being fired for just such teaching. It was in the early 90s.

To be fair, I have come to the conclusion that CI is heresy, and the path that I have seen everyone I have known who has followed this to its conclusion (with a handful of exceptions such as our friend gcdonner) is eventually they stop believing in hell at all… then become a Marcionist, thinking the OT God was evil, then eventually lose faith in heaven, too, and God himself, and abandon sound doctrine.

I would not fault BMA at all for expecting ministers to “hold fast to the doctrine once delivered to the saints”. If it’s really important to believe in annihilationism, go join the Chhrch of God of Abrahamic Faith or something.

In our circles, any minister holding such views would be shown the door, and rightly so……

[Soloist]

In our circles, any minister holding such views would be shown the door, and rightly so……

There is however a difference between holding a view and admitting some verses may be seen to support it.

[Josh]

In our circles, any minister holding such views would be shown the door, and rightly so……

There is however a difference between holding a view and admitting some verses may be seen to support it.

Well, BMA is a fundamentalist church. If people don’t like that, they may:

- Move to a liberal church where all kinds of doctrines are tolerated.

- More to a more conservative church where fundamentalism is not an issue.

[AndersonD]

Why is this such a lightning-rod issue?

I mean none of us are really going to know the actual answer until the time comes anyway. How does this affect how anyone lives their life among the living? And honestly, how often is it even going to come up in church sermons?

Believing the unsaved will cease to exist is a very different concept from being physically tortured for all of eternity. How else will they terrify young teenagers into becoming Christians?

Is this what Scripture means by being "saved by fear"?

Such a belief aligns with the JW's and Seventh Day Adventist cuz, ya know, no fire burns forever. Eventually it goes out.

[Soloist]

Mar 9:44  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

I see both views here, one view seems stronger then the other.