Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[RZehr]

We have people going to Ukraine to repair houses, to put new roofs on houses that were damaged by bombs.
I wouldn’t see an ethical problem going to help Palestinians put houses back together.
Going to help for the express purpose of making it possible for another person to go to war? Seems different than going to help alleviate general civilian suffering and hardships.

[Ken]

We have people going to Ukraine to repair houses, to put new roofs on houses that were damaged by bombs.
I wouldn’t see an ethical problem going to help Palestinians put houses back together.
Going to help for the express purpose of making it possible for another person to go to war? Seems different than going to help alleviate general civilian suffering and hardships.

Of course.

There is an enormous and long tradition of traditional peace churches (and other churches) doing dangerous humanitarian work in the presence of war. And frankly an enormous need for it. The Mennonite Central Committee got it start working in Ukraine in the wake of WW1.

That is fundamentally different from aiding in the war effort on one side or the other. Which frankly might be a valid thing to do depending on the circumstances. Sometimes one side is more sympathetic than the other. But it isn't peacemaking.

[RZehr]

And plain Mennonites are being invited to Israel to work on kibbutz’s farms and mechanic shops to backfill the labor shortage due to the war.

Hey Rxxxxxxx... sorry to drop you a note out of the blue, but I am trying to coordinate volunteer work for Mennonite-background friends who might be able to help with agriculture here in Israel during the crisis. If you know of anyone who might be interested, please send them the following info:

Farmers in Israel are in desperate need for help with everything from tending animals and picking produce to running heavy equipment and making repairs. Many of them are in reserve duty due to the war.
The multiple skills you have are incredibly valuable at this time -- hands that actually know instinctively what to do. If you feel lead to bless the people here, and if you can free yourself up for a few weeks, please let me know. I am already in contact with the agricultural community here to make the placement of helpers efficient and effective -- including sleeping arrangments.
Besides, winter is coming on in North America anyhow, so why not? I also promise to explain the following verses -- a rephrasing of part of Psalm 129 -- in the original Hebrew context if you do come
Let all those who love Zion
Be honored and welcomed in.
Let them not be as the grass on the housetops,
Which withers before it grows up,
But rather as the wheat with which the reaper fills his hand,
With which he who binds sheaves fills his arms.
Let those who pass by them say,
“The blessing of the LORD be upon you"
And may those who are working respond,
"We bless you in the name of the LORD!”

Jxxxx

If you want to go, I can put you in contact with the the coordinator in Israel.

I saw that, too. I went to Charity Bible School with the guy who sent that invite. Mennonites being invited to go to Israel to work to help out soldier-farmers. I wonder if he will get any takers. I'm curious whether Mennonites would be willing to work on American farms to help out army reservist farmers here. If we won't go to war, should we volunteer to fill in at work for the people who do?

At least 20 so far. Turns out that I know some of them. J called me tonight, and I asked him how many are coming so far.

[Josh]

It is really disturbing that conservative Mennonites are getting caught up in this, and is a harbinger of what is to come if we have an actual draft. Going and participating in an overseas war effort will not be an impressive testimony in front of a draft board that wants to understand why you expect to be a C.O. when other young men and women are being sent off to the battlefield, some never to return.

[mike]

I wonder if any of these guys are Mennonites.

[temporal1]

It is really disturbing that conservative Mennonites are getting caught up in this, and is a harbinger of what is to come if we have an actual draft.

Going and participating in an overseas war effort will not be an impressive testimony in front of a draft board that wants to understand why you expect to be a C.O. when other young men and women are being sent off to the battlefield, some never to return.

i may not adequately understand your thoughts.
my understanding is, even godless secularists recognize non-violent acts and service to be separate from (armed) direct participants?

Thus, it’s not uncommon for COs to be allowed, or expected to contribute, in non-violent ways, for instance, chaplains, medical, office support?

i understand the purist preference to keep ALL distance from even indirect support of war efforts.
i don’t expect godless secularists, or even Just War Christians, to grasp or respect that notion.

Example:
i believe Switzerland requires ALL citizens of military age to serve, each makes a choice whether that is military or civil service (??)

[Falco Knotwise]

It is really disturbing that conservative Mennonites are getting caught up in this, and is a harbinger of what is to come if we have an actual draft.

Going and participating in an overseas war effort will not be an impressive testimony in front of a draft board that wants to understand why you expect to be a C.O. when other young men and women are being sent off to the battlefield, some never to return.

i may not adequately understand your thoughts.
my understanding is, even godless secularists recognize non-violent acts and service to be separate from (armed) direct participants?

Thus, it’s not uncommon for COs to be allowed, or expected to contribute, in non-violent ways, for instance, chaplains, medical, office support?

i understand the purist preference to keep ALL distance from even indirect support of war efforts.
i don’t expect godless secularists, or even Just War Christians, to grasp or respect that notion.

Example:
i believe Switzerland requires ALL citizens of military age to serve, each makes a choice whether that is military or civil service (??)

This reminds me of the story of Desmond Doss, a WW II medic. He was originally disliked by his platoon because he was a conscientious objector. He didn’t carry a weapon and refused participate in any kind of violence. However, on the battlefield he would often put himself as great risk going directly into the line of fire to go out and save fallen soldiers of his platoon. They came to regard him with great respect and he ended up being a Medal of Honor recipient.

He came from a Seventh Day Adventist background.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

[Josh]

It is really disturbing that conservative Mennonites are getting caught up in this, and is a harbinger of what is to come if we have an actual draft.

Going and participating in an overseas war effort will not be an impressive testimony in front of a draft board that wants to understand why you expect to be a C.O. when other young men and women are being sent off to the battlefield, some never to return.

Thus, it’s not uncommon for COs to be allowed, or expected to contribute, in non-violent ways, for instance, chaplains, medical, office support?

No. Amish & Mennonite & Hutterite COs don’t put on a uniform and don’t serve on the armed forces at all. In WWI they got sent to prison; in WWII some of them were used for medical experiments to see what happens to the human body after starving long enough. (The latter was voluntary.)

i understand the purist preference to keep ALL distance from even indirect support of war efforts.
i don’t expect godless secularists, or even Just War Christians, to grasp or respect that notion.

Example:
i believe Switzerland requires ALL citizens of military age to serve, each makes a choice whether that is military or civil service (??)

But I expect Mennonites to do so, which is the context of the email RZehr received earlier.

[Soloist]

It is really disturbing that conservative Mennonites are getting caught up in this, and is a harbinger of what is to come if we have an actual draft.

Going and participating in an overseas war effort will not be an impressive testimony in front of a draft board that wants to understand why you expect to be a C.O. when other young men and women are being sent off to the battlefield, some never to return.

i may not adequately understand your thoughts.
my understanding is, even godless secularists recognize non-violent acts and service to be separate from (armed) direct participants?

Thus, it’s not uncommon for COs to be allowed, or expected to contribute, in non-violent ways, for instance, chaplains, medical, office support?

i understand the purist preference to keep ALL distance from even indirect support of war efforts.
i don’t expect godless secularists, or even Just War Christians, to grasp or respect that notion.

Example:
i believe Switzerland requires ALL citizens of military age to serve, each makes a choice whether that is military or civil service (??)

This reminds me of the story of Desmond Doss, a WW II medic. He was originally disliked by his platoon because he was a conscientious objector. He didn’t carry a weapon and refused participate in any kind of violence. However, on the battlefield he would often put himself as great risk going directly into the line of fire to go out and save fallen soldiers of his platoon. They came to regard him with great respect and he ended up being a Medal of Honor recipient.

He came from a Seventh Day Adventist background.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

Wife: Yeah, there is Desmond Doss and a few other medics in World War II that chose to do that, although I think most of them are from Adventist or other backgrounds. I would respect that decision, although I know Doss and Keith Argraves were still pretty patriotic. Doss actually volunteered for a service when he could’ve gotten out as a conscientious objector because he wanted to help his country, which annoyed them, because it was easier having him just be a conscientious objector than still wanting to go out there and not carry a weapon.
Most Mennonite and other anabaptist groups on the other hand would feel uncomfortable doing anything war related, including being a cook, medic, or anything else. When the Mennonites left Russia, Czar Alexander had only said that they would be eligible to be drafted as medics or other noncombatant positions, but that was still enough to convince them to move to America. When drafted in the US during WW2, they would end up working at psych hospitals or other hospitals, doing wildfire management, and farming, which would have helped in some ways, but I find it a little bit different whenever someone’s doing that during a time of draft or when there’s not a war going on than volunteering to go across the world to do it for a specific country when they wouldn’t likely do it with any other foreign countries and may try to use their church affiliation to get out of it in the United States. If they are consistent about it, that would be one thing, and I wouldn’t have as an issue with Christians who already hold that stance volunteering for it.

[Falco Knotwise]

This reminds me of the story of Desmond Doss, a WW II medic. He was originally disliked by his platoon because he was a conscientious objector. He didn’t carry a weapon and refused participate in any kind of violence. However, on the battlefield he would often put himself as great risk going directly into the line of fire to go out and save fallen soldiers of his platoon. They came to regard him with great respect and he ended up being a Medal of Honor recipient.

He came from a Seventh Day Adventist background.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

Wife: Yeah, there is Desmond Doss and a few other medics in World War II that chose to do that, although I think most of them are from Adventist or other backgrounds. I would respect that decision, although I know Doss and Keith Argraves were still pretty patriotic. Doss actually volunteered for a service when he could’ve gotten out as a conscientious objector because he wanted to help his country, which annoyed them, because it was easier having him just be a conscientious objector than still wanting to go out there and not carry a weapon.
Most Mennonite and other anabaptist groups on the other hand would feel uncomfortable doing anything war related, including being a cook, medic, or anything else. When drafted, they would end up working at psych hospitals or other hospitals, doing wildfire management, and farming, which would have helped in some ways, but I find it a little bit different whenever someone’s doing that during a time of draft or when there’s not a war going on than volunteering to go across the world to do it for a specific country when they wouldn’t likely do it with any other foreign countries and may try to use their church affiliation to get out of it in the United States. If they are consistent about it, that would be one thing, and I wouldn’t have as an issue with Christians who already hold that stance volunteering for it.

Yes, I understand that’s how most Mennonites look at it. Desmond Doss, however, didn’t just save American lives, he also treated enemy soldiers. I do understand, however, how choosing to put on a uniform could still make a big difference to Mennonites. Desmond was proud of being American and wished to show his patriotism. That seems to be a big no no from the Mennonite perspective, or at least within a context of serving in an army.