Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Soloist]

Innocent civilians are not fair game. Mennonites and other peacemakers do not need to stumble over themselves to justify slaughtering civilians. I cannot reconcile that with basic Mennonite beliefs. Or with the teaching of Jesus.

I don’t see it boot. Maybe you are in the wrong crowds. No conservative Mennonite I know is justifying anything to do with deaths.

[Bootstrap]

Innocent civilians are not fair game. Mennonites and other peacemakers do not need to stumble over themselves to justify slaughtering civilians. I cannot reconcile that with basic Mennonite beliefs. Or with the teaching of Jesus.

I don’t see it boot. Maybe you are in the wrong crowds. No conservative Mennonite I know is justifying anything to do with deaths.

The crowds I am talking about are here on MN.

I'm not seeing much expression of compassion at all. Show me those quotes. I'm seeing a lot of 'well, Hamas started it, war is hell, shrug'. I'm seeing a lot of statements saying Israel is doing what is reasonable.

Are you seeing a whole lot of people doing the opposite of justifying these deaths? Some people seem to be mostly trying to shut down people who express compassion or outrage.

[RZehr]

Innocent civilians are not fair game. Mennonites and other peacemakers do not need to stumble over themselves to justify slaughtering civilians. I cannot reconcile that with basic Mennonite beliefs. Or with the teaching of Jesus.

I don’t see it boot. Maybe you are in the wrong crowds. No conservative Mennonite I know is justifying anything to do with deaths.

I'm not seeing much expression of compassion at all. Show me those quotes. I'm seeing a lot of 'well, Hamas started it, war is hell, shrug'. I'm seeing a lot of statements saying Israel is doing what is reasonable.

Are you seeing a whole lot of people doing the opposite of justifying these deaths? Some people seem to be mostly trying to shut down people who express compassion or outrage.

Do you have Josh on your foe block list? You don’t read any of what he is saying?

[MaxPC]

I can’t reconcile that with Catholic beliefs either, although prominent Catholics including the Vatican have spoken against the violence going on against Palestinians including attacks and bombings of churches.

As I recently heard a Catholic priest said, “I’d like to see more concern for all the Jewish and Israeli babies slaughtered through abortion as I see for concern about the casualties from the Hamas attacks.” (My paraphrase.)

In reality, authentic Catholic spirituality places far more importance on detachment from the material (such as buildings) and the carrying of the Gospel. As for the Catholic priest, he is allowed his personal opinions. He simply cannot override the teachings of the Catholic Church.

All wartime death and torture is evil but it is also a reality in the secular world. There are our personal preferences and ideologies and then there are the realities of the secular and sin-filled world.

The way forward is to understand both and all sides then to help negotiate peace. Is it simple? Indeed it is not. Nevertheless I do understand the Israeli outrage just as I understand the fear of the Palestinians from both bombings and the fact they are being used by Hamas as human shields. Nothing is ever simply black and white in warfare. Nothing. Only Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

[ken_sylvania]

Some people seem to be arguing that all civilians and places of worship and residential buildings are fair game, even if you have to kill and destroy a disproportionate number of them, even without any clear definition of what the military goal is.

And some people seem to be arguing that retaliation and revenge against innocent citizens is fair game. That hospitals and apartment buildings and churches and schools are all fair game, along with the patients and residents and children. As long as the victims are Palestinian, not Jewish. When 45% of all residential housing has been destroyed or significantly damaged, when the bodies of children are stacked on top of each other in the morgues because there is no room for more, when food and water and medical supplies have been shut off, we are supposed to have zero compassion for Palestinians. Of course, if these were Israelis or Western Christians, we should have all kinds of compassion. Apparently, Palestinian Christians do not count, if their churches are destroyed, that's fair game. Compassion is only allowed for one side - of course, "we're not taking sides", but when compassion is directed to only one side, of course that's taking sides in a war.

They are saying nobody should be outraged by this, because after all, if you happen to be Palestinian and live in Gaza, you deserve retribution for what somebody else did to Israelis. I don't think this is good moral reasoning. And by this moral reasoning, you could also justify Hamas killing innocent Israelis because of all that has been done to them by others. It's the whole cycle of violence. And in each turn in the cycle, each side wants to show that they can be just a touch more extreme than the other.

I cannot justify this. We should be outraged by what Hamas did on October 7th. For precisely the same reason, we should be outraged by the things that have been happening ever since. Because God cares just as much for Palestinians as he does for Israelis. We are all his children.

Innocent civilians are not fair game. Mennonites and other peacemakers do not need to stumble over themselves to justify slaughtering civilians. I cannot reconcile that with basic Mennonite beliefs. Or with the teaching of Jesus.

If you're going to accuse "the crowd on MN" of things like this you ought to be willing to call out the individual posters who are doing this. I'm not seeing this. I think you're making a false accusation here.

[Bootstrap]

I'm not seeing much expression of compassion at all. Show me those quotes. I'm seeing a lot of 'well, Hamas started it, war is hell, shrug'. I'm seeing a lot of statements saying Israel is doing what is reasonable.

Are you seeing a whole lot of people doing the opposite of justifying these deaths? Some people seem to be mostly trying to shut down people who express compassion or outrage.

Do you have Josh on your foe block list? You don’t read any of what he is saying?

Yes, I see Josh expressing compassion for both sides. I see Barnhart doing that. I see Szdfan and Ken doing that. There are probably others.

I also see some people pushing back when someone expresses compassion for Palestinians.

[Bootstrap]

If you're going to accuse "the crowd on MN" of things like this you ought to be willing to call out the individual posters who are doing this. I'm not seeing this. I think you're making a false accusation here.

First off, I think it's against forum rules to take individuals on. I did just name some people who, to my mind, seem to be expressing compassion for victims on both sides. If you want to make your own list, simply look for posts that express compassion and sympathy for Palestinian victims in the same way that we all feel compassion and sympathy for the victims of October 7th. Make a list of people who have clearly done that. I'm guessing that's a lot fewer than the number of people posting on this thread. Make a list of people who have pushed back when someone expresses compassion and sympathy for Palestinian victims. See how much sympathy and compassion they have themselves expressed for these victims.

Better yet, perhaps we can each do that for ourselves.

Second, I'm saying "some people", not the entire crowd on MN. But when Soloist is saying I must be hanging out with the wrong people, this is where I am hanging out.

[ken_sylvania]

If you're going to accuse "the crowd on MN" of things like this you ought to be willing to call out the individual posters who are doing this. I'm not seeing this. I think you're making a false accusation here.

First off, I think it's against forum rules to take individuals on. I did just name some people who, to my mind, seem to be expressing compassion for victims on both sides. If you want to make your own list, simply look for posts that express compassion and sympathy for Palestinian victims in the same way that we all feel compassion and sympathy for the victims of October 7th. Make a list of people who have clearly done that. I'm guessing that's a lot fewer than the number of people posting on this thread. Make a list of people who have pushed back when someone expresses compassion and sympathy for Palestinian victims. See how much sympathy and compassion they have themselves expressed for these victims.

Better yet, perhaps we can each do that for ourselves.

Second, I'm saying "some people", not the entire crowd on MN. But when Soloist is saying I must be hanging out with the wrong people, this is where I am hanging out.

It sounds to me like you are saying that if a person doesn't meet a certain threshhold of expressing compassion and sympathy for the Palestinian victims then that person are "arguing that all civilians and places of worship and residential buildings are fair game", arguing that retaliation and revenge against innocent citizens is fair game", and saying that the Palestinians living in Gaza deserve retribution for the attacks on Israel.

I believe that Gary, Max and RZehr have expressed compassion and sympathy for the Palestinian victims, so I'm not sure who this horrible crowd on MN is that you're referring to.

[Josh]

In reality, authentic Catholic spirituality places far more importance on detachment from the material (such as buildings) and the carrying of the Gospel. As for the Catholic priest, he is allowed his personal opinions. He simply cannot override the teachings of the Catholic Church.

And also opinions I heard expressed by a Catholic bishop. And then there’s the actual statements issued by the Pope himself. The Arab Catholic world is pretty significant. They are opposed to Hamas and terrorism but also believe humanitarian concerns are important for
Arabs both Catholic and non Catholic.

All wartime death and torture is evil but it is also a reality in the secular world. There are our personal preferences and ideologies and then there are the realities of the secular and sin-filled world.

The Catholic Church had actually made a lot of official statements and held positions against war crimes, excessive warfare terrorism and so forth.

The way forward is to understand both and all sides then to help negotiate peace. Is it simple? Indeed it is not. Nevertheless I do understand the Israeli outrage just as I understand the fear of the Palestinians from both bombings and the fact they are being used by Hamas as human shields. Nothing is ever simply black and white in warfare. Nothing. Only Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

I stand by my conviction that bombing churches, mosques, ambulances, and hospitals is always wrong.

[MaxPC]

You are certainly within your Free Will as given by God.

For the record the Pope and the Catholic Church official statements condemned the Hamas and subsequent Hezbollah attacks that started this warfare. Killing children and their parents was started by Hamas. Their rockets as well as Hezbollah’s have targeted civilians in Israel both presently and in the past. The Vatican diplomatic corps is fully aware of Iran’s role in all of this. They do not support Iran’s and by proxie, Hamas/Hezbollah actions against Israel nor Palestinian civilians.

The Catholic Church is offering to mediate negotiations for the release of hostages and the cessation of hostilities. It may be accepted or Iran will continue to pour munitions and support into the destruction of Israel. We shall see.