Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Bootstrap]

Any “peace plan” at the beginning of a war is bound to drastically change. No one can predict with any accuracy how long a war lasts and no one can predict the twist and turns of war. (Right, Putin?)

So I don’t see any urgency or point or value in very detailed peace plan, particularly with a terrorist group. It’s just too chaotic. How well did Americas peace plan work out with Afghanistan? Not well, and not according to plan.

I would think that after the war is getting to be won, and the shape of the future is a bit more clear, there would be time enough.

Just seems like a strange thing to insist on, this idea that a country that is a victim of a surprise attack, should immediately come up with a peace plan, and publish it. Preferably before counter attacking.
Maybe if Hezbollah gives Israel sufficient warning of their next attack, Israel can come up with a peace plan? Maybe Israel could even come up with one and run it by Hezbollah for their approval before the scuffle begins, sort of like professional wrestling?

I don't think anyone is saying they should publish a peace plan now. But I do think peace is the ultimate goal. And if the way they conduct the war can lead only to more war, it's a bad idea. For every action there is also a reaction. Given that fact, what exactly is Israel trying to accomplish by starving and bombing civilians?

What does winning this particular war mean? How will they know if they have done it?

[Soloist]

The military objective is the destruction of Hamas such that they can never rule Gaza again. That seems pretty clear. Much like what Colin Powell said with respect to the Iraqi Army in 1991.

Spin this out for me. You are the Israeli army. Gaza is like New York City and part of Long Island. You want to use your military to destroy Hamas so they can never rule there again.

How do you use your military to accomplish that goal?

I would think special forces raids, drones, and such to take out militant leaders and perhaps extremist political leaders would be much more effective than bombing a bunch of residential buildings, hospitals, and schools.

But I think you also have to start by defining what you mean by Hamas, what you think "the destruction of Hamas" looks like. Is it different from the destruction of Gaza? If Hamas said they wanted to destroy Likud, would they be allowed to do this kind of thing to Israeli civilians?

Yes and this is why a military much larger then Israel bombed weddings. I think you really don’t understand warfare. every warfare everywhere has always resulted with civilian casualties. It’s not realistic to send spec ops and when you need to deal with multiple enemies.
Also do you think they should take out political opponents? Or just military opponents?
There is a difference.

Can you point to any military operation that hasn’t resulted in hardship to civilians?

[MaxPC]

Alarming audio recording reveals how Hamas is stealing critical fuel supply from Gazan hospitals: 'Fill it up for him now... they'll start shooting us'

[Bootstrap]

The military objective is the destruction of Hamas such that they can never rule Gaza again. That seems pretty clear. Much like what Colin Powell said with respect to the Iraqi Army in 1991.

Spin this out for me. You are the Israeli army. Gaza is like New York City and part of Long Island. You want to use your military to destroy Hamas so they can never rule there again.

How do you use your military to accomplish that goal?

I would think special forces raids, drones, and such to take out militant leaders and perhaps extremist political leaders would be much more effective than bombing a bunch of residential buildings, hospitals, and schools.

But I think you also have to start by defining what you mean by Hamas, what you think "the destruction of Hamas" looks like. Is it different from the destruction of Gaza? If Hamas said they wanted to destroy Likud, would they be allowed to do this kind of thing to Israeli civilians?

Yes and this is why a military much larger then Israel bombed weddings. I think you really don’t understand warfare. every warfare everywhere has always resulted with civilian casualties.

I've done a fair amount of work with refugees, and had countless long conversations with Germans in Berlin who lived through World War II. I suspect I understand the civilian cost of war reasonably well. And that probably shows in what I am saying here. I don't think the solution to 1,400 Israeli victims is to add 9,000+ Palestinian victims. I would be much more likely to work with survivors on any side of a war than to serve in any military. I have been with survivors who are grieving and trying to put their lives back together.

I am certainly not a military strategist. Perhaps you can explain what the military objectives should be, and how they should achieve them? Or are you suggesting terrorizing the civilian population is a perfectly good way to wage war? I assume you are not. So what exactly are you suggesting? What military objectives should be pursued? How should civilian losses be kept as low as reasonable while pursuing them?

[Soloist]

I've done a fair amount of work with refugees, and had countless long conversations with Germans in Berlin who lived through World War II. I suspect I understand the civilian cost of war reasonably well.

I am certainly not a military strategist. Perhaps you can explain what the military objectives should be, and how they should achieve them? Or are you suggesting terrorizing the civilian population is a perfectly good way to wage war? I assume you are not. So what exactly are you suggesting?

I have never been to Gaza, I don’t know the population, I don’t know the weapons or capabilities of either side. To sit here and arm chair general I need to know what imaginary forces I have and what I’m going against.
There is zero way to send military into a situation like this without civilian casualties.
Okay so send in police? Sure if you want police getting shot and ending up looking like Military occupation with long drawn out repeated violations of human rights that effectively end with a drawn out process.

Talking to civilians is easy. Talk to the military on the other end that faced children bombs and tell me you can have a “measured response”
Ultimately, you seem content to ignore mention of Egypt and their “responsibilities” and Hamas repeated efforts to mix civilian and “military” targets.

Assume for a moment that a military is attacked but to stop the attackers, they need to bomb a hospital. What is the right action here?
International law says it’s a war crime on either side and one side is hiding behind these things.
Americans have bombed hospitals, weddings, cars with missionaries and strictly military targets. Why did nothing come of this? Because Americans are the ones with the big stick right now.
This is partly why you cannot serve in the military and expect to be ethical or follow the teachings Jesus gave.

[RZehr]

None of us here are military strategists, Boot. The lack of good ideas here shouldn’t be a surprise, nor be taken as proof of anything.

Some of us seem to understand the futility of war sparing the innocent, and the futility of war being anything except evil.
And while we don’t want any to suffer, we understand that is the way of war. And we take a stand against it, and taking any part of it, while knowing that wars will continue to be waged. Yes, we want it to stop - both sides, not just one side.

[Josh]

Israel hasn't been allowing it.

Egypt has closed the border to Gaza. Israel has nothing to do with that.

Egypt allows aid into Gaza, but Israel controls whatever is allowed into Gaza proper (remember, Israel maintains that Gaza is part of its territory and controls its borders).

There are numerous international agencies and other countries ready and willing to send massive amounts of aid into Gaza as soon as Israel will let them. The most obvious question to ask is why nothing can come in via the Med Sea.

[Josh]

Hamas is in complete control of Gaza. Their policy aims are thus operant in and able to be acted on at will. As we saw 3 weeks ago

I wouldn't agree they are in "complete control" simply because they are not in control of their borders. Most specifically, they don't control their access to the Med Sea nor do they control their border with Egypt.

[mike]

It seems like a pretty small chance of success for the West to persuade Israel to adopt a cease-fire or some carefully pre-prepared peace plan while they are probably still reacting out of anger against what happened on Oct. 7.

Hamas Terrorist: We Shot Crying Children ‘Until We Didn’t Hear Noise Anymore’

[RZehr]

It seems like a pretty small chance of success for the West to persuade Israel to adopt a cease-fire or some carefully pre-prepared peace plan while they are probably still reacting out of anger against what happened on Oct. 7.

Hamas Terrorist: We Shot Crying Children ‘Until We Didn’t Hear Noise Anymore’

Interesting that he says that his parents didn't know that he had joined Hamas, and that if his father knew what he did to the Israeli children, his own father would kill him for that.