Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[HondurasKeiser]

BOTH Israel and the Palestinians are claiming "from the river to the sea" but neither of them wants to accommodate the other's legitimate claims to the land, both as a people, and in terms of individual property rights.

Can you show me where they make that claim? Israel that is.

For starters ...

Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch
PM pledges thousands of apartments in East Jerusalem, says construction will curb Bethlehem’s encroachment on capital

Israeli far-right's Ben-Gvir to be national security minister under coalition deal

Ben-Gvir, who was convicted in 2007 of racist incitement against Arabs and backing a group considered by Israel and the United States to be a terrorist organization, will have an expanded security portfolio that will include responsibility for Border Police in the occupied West Bank.

Is East Jerusalem the entire "River to the Sea"? Is having and "expanded security portfolio "the River to the Sea"? Be serious Boot.

[HondurasKeiser]

BOTH Israel and the Palestinians are claiming "from the river to the sea" but neither of them wants to accommodate the other's legitimate claims to the land, both as a people, and in terms of individual property rights.

Can you show me where they make that claim? Israel that is.

And a little more ...

In the West Bank, Israel’s Judicial Coup Has Another Name: It’s Called Annexation

The Netanyahu government’s radical legislative program within the Green Line is closely connected with control over the West Bank in every respect - except for an official declaration ■ 'This is annexation in every way, without all the pomp and circumstance of cutting the ribbon, as Putin did in Crimea'

Haaretz hates Netanyahu and the Right and the Judicial Reform and there's no link between reigning in the unconstitutional powers currently being exercised by the court and the "annexation of the West Bank".

[Ken]

Question: is what we know as Gaza part of what God gave to the Israelites?

Yes, consult the map or Numbers 34.

[HondurasKeiser]

Your response about how you think Israel should respond to the worst attack in it's history was telling because it offered extremes that no one desires e.g. wiping out all Palestinians or that are untenable e.g. maintaining the status quo or demanding that darn Palestinians get rid of Hamas on their own. What? Get rid of Hamas or what, Boot?

I don't think that's a fair description of my response, so let me copy my response below.

I said that you have to have a military objective, and that the military objective needs to be linked to an end game.

So how then should Israel respond? You started a thread on that and spent a lot of time decrying the atrocities of Israel but never really got around to answering your own question.

I think it's a very difficult question to answer.

But I think it starts here: What are the military and diplomatic goals? What does getting to peace look like? In the long run, I think there are only a few possibilities for a long-term peace:

1. Israel wipes Palestinians off the face of the earth or deports them to other places, terrorism ceases, and the Arab world does not respond violently. This seems entirely unrealistic to me.
2. Israel tries to maintain the status quo - gradually wiping out Palestinian rights, controlling their borders, telling them what they can import and export, preventing them from having economic viability, building new settlements on what is currently Palestinian land, protecting Jews who commit atrocities against Palestinians, trying to undermine the Israeli Supreme Court to erode their basic human rights, and hoping that Palestinians will be willing to go along. This seems entirely unrealistic to me.
3. Israel demands that Palestinians appoint a negotiating partner that is committed to peaceful negotiations, not Hamas, and is willing to offer Palestinians either a viable state of their own or full citizenship in Israel. This would be very hard, but seems much more possible.

I think the military strategy should be built largely on the peace they want to build in the end.

Without a clear military objective, aligned with a diplomatic objective, it's just a lot of killing.

So back to you: Are there possibilities I missed? How would you go about working toward a long-term peace, and what military objectives are compatible with that?

What do you think the military objective should be? And the long-term diplomatic objective? How are the various things you seem to be justifying related to a clear military objective?

How many civilian deaths are justified in order to get one legitimate military target?

You gave unserious objectives. Israel does NOT:
1. Want to wipe Palestinians from the Earth.
or
2. Maintain the status quo or having increasing control over their affairs.
Your 3rd option of demanding that Gazans get rid of Hamas is laughable. Even if they wanted to, and polls say they don't, how wuld they go about that?

It's not incumbent on Israel to have a long-term peace project at hand before they begin attempting to rid Gaza of Hamas. Did the U.S. have a "Path to Peace" before it declared war on Japan? Israel needs to take care of the existential threat that is Hamas. There will be plenty of time for a path to peace afterwards.

[HondurasKeiser]

Question: is what we know as Gaza part of what God gave to the Israelites?

Yes, consult the map or Numbers 34.

Yes, thank you Ken, I saw your map. I ask because I have heard it stated by Jews that Gaza never formed part of the Promised Land. I was curious and simply because someone drew a map does not make it true.

[Ken]

Question: is what we know as Gaza part of what God gave to the Israelites?

Yes, consult the map or Numbers 34.

Yes, thank you Ken, I saw your map. I ask because I have heard it stated by Jews that Gaza never formed part of the Promised Land. I was curious and simply because someone drew a map does not make it true.

At one time there were Jewish Israeli settlements in Gaza too. But they have since wisely abandoned their claim to the area.

The map source is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promised_Land

[Ken]

It's not incumbent on Israel to have a long-term peace project at hand before they begin attempting to rid Gaza of Hamas. Did the U.S. have a "Path to Peace" before it declared war on Japan? Israel needs to take care of the existential threat that is Hamas. There will be plenty of time for a path to peace afterwards.

This is inaccurate.

The US had developed absolutely enormous and detailed occupation plans for both Germany and Japan long before the wars were culminated. Planning for these efforts began in in February 1942, just 3 months after Pearl Harbor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advisory_ ... ign_Policy

The US and Allies most definitely did not wait until the war was over to plan for the peace.

[Robert]

Yes. Now do the math - 100 trucks. 2,000,000+ civilians. Massive bombings. Do you think 100 trucks can even begin to satisfy the basic needs?

Why is there no aid flowing in from the Egyptian border?

[Ken]

Yes. Now do the math - 100 trucks. 2,000,000+ civilians. Massive bombings. Do you think 100 trucks can even begin to satisfy the basic needs?

Why is there no aid flowing in from the Egyptian border?

Israel hasn't been allowing it. Israel doesn't control the actual Rafah border crossing between Egypt and Gaza. But Israel requires that all trucks be inspected at an Israeli port of entry to the east before being allowed to return to Rafah and cross into Gaza. Since Israel controls the air space above Gaza they do have de facto control over the border crossing and have threatened to destroy any convoys that have not been inspected by Israel and permitted entry. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-10-28/

[HondurasKeiser]

It's not incumbent on Israel to have a long-term peace project at hand before they begin attempting to rid Gaza of Hamas. Did the U.S. have a "Path to Peace" before it declared war on Japan? Israel needs to take care of the existential threat that is Hamas. There will be plenty of time for a path to peace afterwards.

This is inaccurate.

The US had developed absolutely enormous and detailed occupation plans for both Germany and Japan long before the wars were culminated. Planning for these efforts began in in February 1942, just 3 months after Pearl Harbor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advisory_ ... ign_Policy

The US and Allies most definitely did not wait until the war was over to plan for the peace.

Well it’s been 3 weeks.