Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[HondurasKeiser]

It is convenient when the teachings and example of Jesus only apply when I want them to.

They only apply to people who choose to follow Jesus. Your quip is unfair to Valerie.

[HondurasKeiser]

Scripture can always be misused to justify atrocities. I think that using Deuteronomy to justify the killing of innocent people in Gaza is terrible theology.

If Christians justify killing innocent civilians with Scripture, how are we different from radical Muslims who do the same? When Muslims do that, we say they are promoting hatred in the name of religion. What should we say when Christians and Jews do it too?

And even in the Old Testament, you really need to look at what God said before and after that time. It's a much different picture than some people see.

This is a bizarre turn in the conversation. None of us like or desire war - Valerie included. I think she's making a simple and realist argument that "war and rumors of wars" will always exist. She's not using scripture to justify wars against others. To suggest that she is slander and twisting of her words.

Mennonites have never believed that the abolition of war was possible through the use of certain tactics or strategies. Simply and only that as citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven, our weapons are not carnal but spiritual.

[Bootstrap]

Gaza is a tough place, I might feel desperate if I were born there.

And unspeakable things are more likely to happen in very desperate places.

I honestly don't understand the inclination of so many here to minimize the horror of what Hamas committed, or to find Israel as the primary locus of the conflict. Or, to expect Israel to somehow, and unlike any other country in human history, to use Gandhi-level restraint and find diplomatic solutions for attempted genocide.

You're right about this: you honestly don't understand. Because I don't think we are trying to minimize the horror of what Hamas has committed at all. And I think we are saying that both sides bear a lot of guilt. I don't know if you are saying that Israel does not bear guilt or that Israel is not committing atrocities against civilians or that those atrocities are justified or ... what exactly are you saying? Where do we disagree?

You can never win a war without winning the peace. Just killing a bunch of Palestinians keeps the cycle of violence going. The cycle of violence did not start with the October 7th attack, and it will not end by killing a bunch of Palestinian children, shutting off water and electricity and food and hospital supplies for millions of civilians, etc.

Palestinians react to horrific acts on civilians the same way Israelis do. Is the Israeli government as bad as Hamas? Definitely not. Is Israel committing atrocities that are hard to excuse? Absolutely. Does that increase or decrease support for Islamic extremists?

[Bootstrap]

If Christians justify killing innocent civilians with Scripture, how are we different from radical Muslims who do the same? When Muslims do that, we say they are promoting hatred in the name of religion. What should we say when Christians and Jews do it too?

And even in the Old Testament, you really need to look at what God said before and after that time. It's a much different picture than some people see.

This is a bizarre turn in the conversation. None of us like or desire war - Valerie included. I think she's making a simple and realist argument that "war and rumors of wars" will always exist. She's not using scripture to justify wars against others. To suggest that she is slander and twisting of her words.

Mennonites have never believed that the abolition of war was possible through the use of certain tactics or strategies. Simply and only that as citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven, our weapons are not carnal but spiritual.

It's possible that I misunderstood.

Can someone please summarize the video that Valerie pointed to? Valerie, what exactly did you want us to take away from that video?

[Bootstrap]

Mennonites have never believed that the abolition of war was possible through the use of certain tactics or strategies. Simply and only that as citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven, our weapons are not carnal but spiritual.

I agree with that.

So how do we exercise those spiritual weapons? All I can do is grieve and pray. "Blessed are those who mourn". For the victims on both sides.

[ken_sylvania]

It is convenient when the teachings and example of Jesus only apply when I want them to.

They only apply to people who choose to follow Jesus. Your quip is unfair to Valerie.

I believe this was in response to Valerie mentioning people who claim to be Christian but wiggle around Jesus' teaching about nonresistance. In that context, I don't believe joshuabgood is being unfair.

That being said, I believe that Jesus calls everyone to follow and obey him, and everyone who rejects Him will be judged for that, whether or not they profess to be His follower.

[HondurasKeiser]

Israel and Palestine were chartered in the same way. Israel won the wars, taking over a lot of Palestine. And this is what Palestinians face:

Who started the war?

In 1947 or in 2023?

Your quote mentioned the war in 1947 and the loss of property, wealth, etc. It's to that original war that I refer:

The 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine was the first phase of the 1947–1949 Palestine war. It broke out after the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a resolution on 29 November 1947 recommending the adoption of the Partition Plan for Palestine.[5]

During the civil war, the Jewish and Arab communities of Palestine clashed (the latter supported by the Arab Liberation Army) while the British, who had the obligation to maintain order,[6][7] organized their withdrawal and intervened only on an occasional basis.

When the British Mandate of Palestine expired on 14 May 1948, and with the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, the surrounding Arab states—Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq and Syria—invaded what had just ceased to be Mandatory Palestine,[8] and immediately attacked Israeli forces and several Jewish settlements.[9] The conflict thus escalated and became the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.

I'm sure there were injustices on both sides prior to 1947 and we know there have been injustices on both sides after 1947. Your claim that Israel engaged in terrorism though is unsubstantiated unless you can offer proof.

To my question though, it was the Palestinians that began the civil war because they could not abide a sovereign, Jewish entity living next to them. Every conflict after has been initiated by Arabs and/or Palestinians for the exact same reason. Israel, with the exception of the Suez crisis, of which it was not the lead insurgent, has never initiated an unprovoked attack.

The most recent and unprovoked attack left a death/injury toll, that would be the U.S. equivalent of some 40,000 souls. Israel has responded not with similar tactics as you or Josh claim (show me beheaded, people, families murdered in their beds and kidnapped civilians) but rather with conventional, targeted attacks to cut off the command, control and communication lines of the enemy. That is "War 101" dating back to the Iliad. Israel is being accused of War Crimes for engaging in conventional tactics; tactics that would be expected of any other nation on Earth were they in a similar situation.

You not what's not conventional? Israel attempting to move Gazan civilians to the south and away from the heat of the conflict. You know what's not conventional? Hamas using their own civilians as shields.

Your response about how you think Israel should respond to the worst attack in it's history was telling because it offered extremes that no one desires e.g. wiping out all Palestinians or that are untenable e.g. maintaining the status quo or demanding that darn Palestinians get rid of Hamas on their own. What? Get rid of Hamas or what, Boot?

[HondurasKeiser]

It is convenient when the teachings and example of Jesus only apply when I want them to.

They only apply to people who choose to follow Jesus. Your quip is unfair to Valerie.

I believe this was in response to Valerie mentioning people who claim to be Christian but wiggle around Jesus' teaching about nonresistance. In that context, I don't believe joshuabgood is being unfair.

That being said, I believe that Jesus calls everyone to follow and obey him, and everyone who rejects Him will be judged for that, whether or not they profess to be His follower.

Forgive me then JBG. If that was what Valerie was saying I would have to agree with you.
I also agree with you Ken in that last statement. However, I do not expect States, led as they are by non-believers to make normative the teachings of Jesus on nonresistance and love of enemy.

[HondurasKeiser]

Gaza is a tough place, I might feel desperate if I were born there.

And unspeakable things are more likely to happen in very desperate places.

I honestly don't understand the inclination of so many here to minimize the horror of what Hamas committed, or to find Israel as the primary locus of the conflict. Or, to expect Israel to somehow, and unlike any other country in human history, to use Gandhi-level restraint and find diplomatic solutions for attempted genocide.

You're right about this: you honestly don't understand. Because I don't think we are trying to minimize the horror of what Hamas has committed at all. And I think we are saying that both sides bear a lot of guilt. I don't know if you are saying that Israel does not bear guilt or that Israel is not committing atrocities against civilians or that those atrocities are justified or ... what exactly are you saying? Where do we disagree?

You can never win a war without winning the peace. Just killing a bunch of Palestinians keeps the cycle of violence going. The cycle of violence did not start with the October 7th attack, and it will not end by killing a bunch of Palestinian children, shutting off water and electricity and food and hospital supplies for millions of civilians, etc.

Palestinians react to horrific acts on civilians the same way Israelis do. Is the Israeli government as bad as Hamas? Definitely not. Is Israel committing atrocities that are hard to excuse? Absolutely. Does that increase or decrease support for Islamic extremists?

What atrocities is Israel committing?

[Nomad]

I haven't seen a military use more restraint than Israel. They drop flyers before bombing, then they "roof-knock" before the bombing by dropping a dummy device or low-yield explosive to warn the residents inside they have 10-15 minutes to leave the building AFTER the warning flyers. This even at the risk of missing their enemy. Not to mention they also gave Gaza city warning to leave the city and flee south before ground operations...I dont hear of to many military's taking this action. At least I hadn't heard of that occurring in the Ukraine-Russia war most recently, but perhaps they did and I didn't hear...

The Hamas are obviously taking advantage of the dense population in Gaza. They've been firing rockets from the most densely populated regions of the Gaza strip and its known by unbiased intel they are hindering civilians from leaving to flee south, whether physically or via coercion I dont know. They also are firing rockets into Israel indiscriminately without regard for human life and they do not reciprocate what Israel is doing by warning innocent civilians to leave when they attack or bomb.

Arab nations have brainwashed a society of people and children by classifying Jews and Israel as the evil ones. You can read it in any Arab countries school classroom textbook...even Egypt has anti-Israel/ Jewish indoctrination of their young in school classrooms. This is preventing any chance of peace when they are teaching young to hate Israel...the only real solution in their eyes is to remove Israel as a nation and make it Islamic like the nations surrounding it. And if you think the Jews would find peace within another Islamic led state, your wrong. History has proven by pogroms and anti Jewish edicts that Jews have a biase against them from both opposing sides of Christianity and Islam.

In my world view, we would not drop bombs in the 1st place nor teach hate...but I have no issue in labeling who is forcing the war on whom. I dont believe a 2-state option would solve the issue even if it was agreed upon at this point, the Camp David Accords proved this. When the anti Israel crowd says "from the river (Jordan) to the sea (Mediterranean)..." they are meaning it. Its not a joke.

As Golda Meir said-
"When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."