Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[RZehr]

Gaza is a quasi-nation I suppose. The people of Gaza elected Hamas as their government back in 2006 and haven't held an election since. Although public opinion polls put the Gazan support for Hamas at about 50%. So they do essentially represent Gaza even though they haven't subjected themselves to an election.

Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and according to recent public opinion polls is supported by roughly half the population of Gaza. So they are essentially as legitimate as either the Republican or Democratic parties.

No, the United States is not the same as the Republican party. But we elected Republicans in 2000 and they brought us (ALL OF US) into war in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Political choices have consequences. We elected Democrats to power in 2020 and that choice also has policy consequences.

The population of Gaza chose to elect Hamas and that choice had consequences. They elected a party whose ideology is war with Israel. Granted Gaza is not much of a democracy and they haven't had elections in a decade. But much of the population still supports Hamas. And now they are at war with Israel. Surprise, surprise. If large percentages of the population did not support Hamas they would not have been able to organize and execute such an enormous operation without detection in the way that they did.

I think we can easily separate in our minds the innocent Gaza civilians from Hamas, particularly if we use a mere ounce of effort. I think everyone can do that.

However: If you read comments online, you may very quickly see how many people commenting have, at best, little sympathy for the people of Gaza because they allow Hamas to rule; and some go further and will lay some responsibility for these atrocities at the feet of the 50% of the people who voted for Hamas.

This makes me think of American christian voters. Are they just as responsible for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, if they voted for Bush or Obama? As a reminder, Obama launched airstrikes or military raids in at least seven countries: Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan. (In case the Democratic voter thinks this doesn't apply to them.) Or, are American voters somehow exempt from this phenomenon that says the people who placed and keep Hamas in power bear responsibility for what Hamas does?

[Josh]

I think we can easily separate in our minds the innocent Gaza civilians from Hamas, particularly if we use a mere ounce of effort. I think everyone can do that.

A lot of people are failing to do so, and think collective punishment (which is a war crime) is somehow OK.

However: If you read comments online, you may very quickly see how many people commenting have, at best, little sympathy for the people of Gaza because they allow Hamas to rule; and some go further and will lay some responsibility for these atrocities at the feet of the 50% of the people who voted for Hamas.

Yes, which is barbaric and inhumane. In particular, children don’t vote.

This makes me think of American christian voters. Are they just as responsible for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, if they voted for Bush or Obama? As a reminder, Obama launched airstrikes or military raids in at least seven countries: Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan. (In case the Democratic voter thinks this doesn't apply to them.) Or, are American voters somehow exempt from this phenomenon that says the people who placed and keep Hamas in power bear responsibility for what Hamas does?

Spot on. Does America deserve collective punishment from fighters for Afghanistan or Iraq or other countries for America’s collective misdeeds? And Americans have consistently voted for Democrats+Republicans, who have consistently opted for more war, not less.

The answer is “of course not” but the lack of humane concern for Gazans I find disturbing. The people have lived there for many generations - long before “Israel” existed. They have nowhere else to go. They are poor. They live under siege.

Israel is wealthy and fully capable of containing Hamas. They don’t need to murder babies and children to do so.

[Ken]

I think we can easily separate in our minds the innocent Gaza civilians from Hamas, particularly if we use a mere ounce of effort. I think everyone can do that.

A lot of people are failing to do so, and think collective punishment (which is a war crime) is somehow OK.

However: If you read comments online, you may very quickly see how many people commenting have, at best, little sympathy for the people of Gaza because they allow Hamas to rule; and some go further and will lay some responsibility for these atrocities at the feet of the 50% of the people who voted for Hamas.

Yes, which is barbaric and inhumane. In particular, children don’t vote.

This makes me think of American christian voters. Are they just as responsible for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, if they voted for Bush or Obama? As a reminder, Obama launched airstrikes or military raids in at least seven countries: Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan. (In case the Democratic voter thinks this doesn't apply to them.) Or, are American voters somehow exempt from this phenomenon that says the people who placed and keep Hamas in power bear responsibility for what Hamas does?

Spot on. Does America deserve collective punishment from fighters for Afghanistan or Iraq or other countries for America’s collective misdeeds? And Americans have consistently voted for Democrats+Republicans, who have consistently opted for more war, not less.

The answer is “of course not” but the lack of humane concern for Gazans I find disturbing. The people have lived there for many generations - long before “Israel” existed. They have nowhere else to go. They are poor. They live under siege.

Israel is wealthy and fully capable of containing Hamas. They don’t need to murder babies and children to do so.

You are conflating two separate subjects here.

1. No one deserves collective punishment for the actions of their government. Not the Gazans. Not Americans, not Germans for WW2, and so forth. And especially not children. In fact, collective punishment in war is a prima facia war crime.

but...

2. Gazans are to some extent responsible for the fact that Hamas holds power in Gaza. They elected Hamas to be their leadership knowing full well what Hamas represented. Just like Americans and Germans are responsible for the choices that they made in choosing leaders. Hamas would not be controlling Gaza were it not for the consent and approval of large numbers of Gazans. And nor would they have been able to launch such a sophisticated attack on Israel without a LOT of Gazans being complicit, at least through their silence.

[Bootstrap]

1. No one deserves collective punishment for the actions of their government. Not the Gazans. Not Americans, not Germans for WW2, and so forth. And especially not children. In fact, collective punishment in war is a prima facia war crime.

I agree.

but...

2. Gazans are to some extent responsible for the fact that Hamas holds power in Gaza. They elected Hamas to be their leadership knowing full well what Hamas represented. Just like Americans and Germans are responsible for the choices that they made in choosing leaders. Hamas would not be controlling Gaza were it not for the consent and approval of large numbers of Gazans. And nor would they have been able to launch such a sophisticated attack on Israel without a LOT of Gazans being complicit, at least through their silence.

I think you are blurring over point #1 here. A lot of innocent people are going to die horrible deaths, including Palestinians and Israelis. Some of the victims in Gaza were from Nepal, and had nothing at all to do with any of this. Collective punishment is a war crime, and I'm pretty sure that's what we are seeing when they bomb apartment buildings and commercial towers. I'm not sure that leads to peace - it pours even more gas on the flames.

And yes, they elected Hamas back in 2006, right? It's 2023 now, they haven't had a chance to vote since then - until elections are restored, it's hard to blame the people who are not allowed to vote for failing to choose a different government. Clearly, Hamas is to blame for the attacks, which were horrific. The kind of videos that Valerie mentioned have been declared genuine by sources I trust now. But most people living in Gaza did not do these things.

[Ken]

1. No one deserves collective punishment for the actions of their government. Not the Gazans. Not Americans, not Germans for WW2, and so forth. And especially not children. In fact, collective punishment in war is a prima facia war crime.

I agree.

but...

2. Gazans are to some extent responsible for the fact that Hamas holds power in Gaza. They elected Hamas to be their leadership knowing full well what Hamas represented. Just like Americans and Germans are responsible for the choices that they made in choosing leaders. Hamas would not be controlling Gaza were it not for the consent and approval of large numbers of Gazans. And nor would they have been able to launch such a sophisticated attack on Israel without a LOT of Gazans being complicit, at least through their silence.

I think you are blurring over point #1 here. A lot of innocent people are going to die horrible deaths, including Palestinians and Israelis. Some of the victims in Gaza were from Nepal, and had nothing at all to do with any of this. Collective punishment is a war crime, and I'm pretty sure that's what we are seeing when they bomb apartment buildings and commercial towers. I'm not sure that leads to peace - it pours even more gas on the flames.

And yes, they elected Hamas back in 2006, right? It's 2023 now, they haven't had a chance to vote since then - until elections are restored, it's hard to blame the people who are not allowed to vote for failing to choose a different government. Clearly, Hamas is to blame for the attacks, which were horrific. The kind of videos that Valerie mentioned have been declared genuine by sources I trust now. But most people living in Gaza did not do these things.

I'm not blurring the point at all.

Flip it around.

1. Israeli's do not deserve collective punishment for the repression that the Israeli government imposes on Gaza. The babies and civilians that were murdered by Hamas? They did not deserve to be killed for the actions of their government.

however....

2. The Israeli government IS responsible for how they treat Gaza and Gazans and the Israeli public is responsible for some extent for their choice of government. They have repeatedly elected right wing governments under Netanyahu that have treated Palestinians and Gazans very poorly which has resulted in some predictable blowback. Just like the Hamas raid is going to generate blowback by Israel.

Both of those things can be simultaneously true.

[ohio jones]

it pours even more gas on the flames.

And gas is in short supply. Gaza's power plant is running out of fuel today, and the hospital generators probably tomorrow.

Sieges used to be measured in months or even years, at times (26 years seems to be the record). This one may be over relatively soon as conditions quickly become desperate.

[temporal1]

Report: Hamas calls for global Jihad, invasion of Israel, attack Jews worldwide on Oct. 13
https://americanmilitarynews.com/2023/1 ... on-oct-13/




‘A day for sacrifice, heroism, and dedication’: Hamas calls for world-wide ‘general mobilization’ on Friday
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2023/10/11 ... y-1403389/

Biden admin, world leaders stripped reference to Iran from Hamas condemnation: Report
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2023/10/11 ... bvFYBmpSp4

[temporal1]

And gas is in short supply. Gaza's power plant is running out of fuel today, and the hospital generators probably tomorrow.

Sieges used to be measured in months or even years, at times (26 years seems to be the record). This one may be over relatively soon as conditions quickly become desperate.

From your keyboard to God’s ear.

[Josh]

One major effect of this is that the Israel-KSA peace talks are off the table for now.

A lot of Arabs are very unhappy with their countries getting chummy with Israel. Street protests that are pro-Palestine are happening across the globe.

Again… Israel should have built a wall, had intelligence to ferret out potential attacks, controlled the airspace above Gaza, and pacified Gazans with enough aid to make them less sympathetic to Hamas’s invasion of Israel.

[Valerie]

Report: Hamas calls for global Jihad, invasion of Israel, attack Jews worldwide on Oct. 13
https://americanmilitarynews.com/2023/1 ... on-oct-13/




‘A day for sacrifice, heroism, and dedication’: Hamas calls for world-wide ‘general mobilization’ on Friday
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2023/10/11 ... y-1403389/

Biden admin, world leaders stripped reference to Iran from Hamas condemnation: Report
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2023/10/11 ... bvFYBmpSp4

Did I read this right? They are advising the public to STAY HOME Friday, Ovt. 13? Because of worldwide Jihad?? Sounds somewhat setious!