Cultural Separation from Parents

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Ken
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Re: Cultural Separation from Parents

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:25 pm The words of Jesus contain all the argument ever needed against you. Anything else is wasted words.
Matthew 19: 4-5 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
In the verse you quoted Jesus is answering a direct question about divorce and not gayness or transgenderism. I note that you conveniently (deliberately?) left off the end of the verse

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder

In this verse, Jesus is actually prohibiting divorce. A Biblical command straight from the mouth of Jesus that some here find it convenient to ignore.
Last edited by Ken on Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Cultural Separation from Parents

Post by Josh »

God sent Jesus to be in a family: Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. A perfect family, actually.
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Soloist

Re: Cultural Separation from Parents

Post by Soloist »

Ken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:38 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:25 pm The words of Jesus contain all the argument ever needed against you. Anything else is wasted words.
Matthew 19: 4-5 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Yes. in the verse you quoted Jesus is answering a question about divorce and not gayness or transgenderism. I note that you conveniently left off the end of the verse

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder

In this verse, Jesus is actually prohibiting divorce. A Biblical command straight from the mouth of Jesus that some here conveniently ignore.
I was responding to this claim which is in error.
In point of fact, the nuclear family as it is defined today (one mother, one father, and children) is not remotely Old Testament Biblical.
Addressing Divorce and remarriage was not the point of the quote nor was it targeted at condemning homosexuality or transgenderism. It was specifically pointing out the original teachings which you ignored.
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Ken
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Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
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Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Cultural Separation from Parents

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:42 pm God sent Jesus to be in a family: Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. A perfect family, actually.
And according to scriptures, Jesus left his family and the care and authority of his parents, and began to make his own independent life decisions separately from them at the age of 12. Which would be middle school (6th grade) in today's world.

Should we use the model of the "perfect family" of Jesus for deciding when children today are able to make their own autonomous decisions separately from their parents?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Cultural Separation from Parents

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:42 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:38 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:25 pm The words of Jesus contain all the argument ever needed against you. Anything else is wasted words.
Yes. in the verse you quoted Jesus is answering a question about divorce and not gayness or transgenderism. I note that you conveniently left off the end of the verse

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder

In this verse, Jesus is actually prohibiting divorce. A Biblical command straight from the mouth of Jesus that some here conveniently ignore.
I was responding to this claim which is in error.
In point of fact, the nuclear family as it is defined today (one mother, one father, and children) is not remotely Old Testament Biblical.
Addressing Divorce and remarriage was not the point of the quote nor was it targeted at condemning homosexuality or transgenderism. It was specifically pointing out the original teachings which you ignored.
You are quoting a NEW TESTAMENT verse that is a blanket prohibition of divorce and not a blueprint for family structure.

It does nothing to refute my point which is that the nuclear family as it is understood today is nowhere endorsed in the Old Testament. And certainly not in Genesis. To the contrary. It took the conquering pagan Romans to impose monogamy in Hebrew lands. And, according to historians, it took them at least 300 years to get the job done.
Last edited by Ken on Sat Sep 16, 2023 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
RZehr

Re: Cultural Separation from Parents

Post by RZehr »

Ken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:52 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:42 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:38 pm

Yes. in the verse you quoted Jesus is answering a question about divorce and not gayness or transgenderism. I note that you conveniently left off the end of the verse

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder

In this verse, Jesus is actually prohibiting divorce. A Biblical command straight from the mouth of Jesus that some here conveniently ignore.
I was responding to this claim which is in error.
In point of fact, the nuclear family as it is defined today (one mother, one father, and children) is not remotely Old Testament Biblical.
Addressing Divorce and remarriage was not the point of the quote nor was it targeted at condemning homosexuality or transgenderism. It was specifically pointing out the original teachings which you ignored.
You are quoting a NEW TESTAMENT verse about divorce and not family.

It does nothing to refute my point which is that the nuclear family as it is understood today is nowhere endorsed in the Old Testament. To the contrary. It took the conquering pagan Romans to impose monogamy in Hebrew lands. And, according to historians, it took them at least 300 years to get the job done.
The OT polygamy culture might be compared with American divorce and shack up culture. Neither are right, deep down they all in both eras new this. Unfortunately the knowledge didn’t and doesn’t make people choose right.
The first OT polygamist was noted as being first. It was wrong, they knew it was wrong, but they did it.
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Soloist

Re: Cultural Separation from Parents

Post by Soloist »

Ken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:52 pm
You are quoting a NEW TESTAMENT verse about divorce and not family.
Do you really not know Scripture and what Jesus said?
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
It certainly seems that way from your argument with Josh too
Luk 2:51  And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
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Falco Knotwise

Re: Cultural Separation from Parents

Post by Falco Knotwise »

Ken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 3:53 pm
Falco Knotwise wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 3:23 pm
MaxPC wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:59 pm

Nuclear families are the nucleus of civilisation.
Yes, but people often think in terms of physics today which apparently can cause con-fusion.

The Bible seems to prefer extended families and the modern tendency to idealize the nuclear family is perhaps part of a social atomization process.
In point of fact, the nuclear family as it is defined today (one mother, one father, and children) is not remotely Old Testament Biblical. And most certainly is not some master plan laid out in Genesis as Josh asserts. How many wives did Abraham have? He is the patriarch of the Genesis story. How many did Jacob have? What about Esau? Those are central figures from Genesis. Exodus 21:10 lays out God's rules for polygamy and the taking of slave wives. Deuteronomy 21:15-17 lays out God's rules of inheritance for polygamist families. How many wives did Saul have? What about David? What about Solomon?

In fact, despite Josh's assertions to the contrary, I suspect examples of true nuclear families (composed only of one mother, one father, and minor children) are few and far between in the Old Testament.

What the historical record actually tells us is that the monogamist nuclear family as we understand it today arose from pagan Roman culture not Hebrew culture. And it was the pagan Romans who imposed monogamy and nuclear families across the Roman Empire. Roman historians such as Josephus talk about the deeply rooted tradition of polygamy in Hebrew lands and how it took centuries for Roman law and rule to completely extinguish that custom. Indeed, Paul's writings (which include monogamy) represent to some extent the Hellenization of Jewish teachings for a wider non-Hebrew audience across the Roman world.
Well, I'm not disagreeing with Josh that the basic family unit is the conjugal family. Far from it, I heartily agree with that.

Abraham and the patriarchal familes are a complex case because when God decided to make a new covenant after dividing the nations at the Tower of Babel, he called Abraham out of the city of Ur of the Chaldeans, which had been absorbed into the Babylonian empire.

Therefore, though Abraham leaves the city of Ur he originally brings along some of the practices of Babylonian culture with him. He had to learn gradually over time about a proper family plan under a covenant with God. In fact, when Abraham was called he was already married to his half-sister! This was a practice that was allowed in Babylon only among families of high standing.

Later, of course, when the law of Moses was given it would be explicitly forbidden to marry one's half-sister. But for the time being, God would tolerate it. Similarly, even though the practice of polygamy was tolerated in Babylon and mideast culture in general, Abraham would have to learn over time that it wasn't exactly God's plan for him. Under Mosaic law polygamy would still be tolerated but it would be frowned upon. Sometimes it was considered necessary, as in war time when men were few, or perhaps converts would bring them more than one spouse and couldn't be separated. It was not considered ideal.

In international politics it was often necessary for a king to marry the daughters of other kings as a matter of diplomacy. Israelite kings were therefore allowed to practice polygamy in the interests of peace but were warned against taking too many wives. (A commandment Solomon ignored.)

The Catholic Church agrees it was never the original plan according to Genesis and that polygamy is an offense against the dignity of the person. Therefore, polygamy is forbidden by the Church. I agree with this.

I'm currently reading a very good book about this by a Jewish scholar, which is where I got these insights.

https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/bo ... 50671.html
Last edited by Falco Knotwise on Sat Sep 16, 2023 5:25 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Cultural Separation from Parents

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:59 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:52 pm
You are quoting a NEW TESTAMENT verse about divorce and not family.
Do you really not know Scripture and what Jesus said?
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
It certainly seems that way from your argument with Josh too
Luk 2:51  And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
All we know is that Jesus defied the authority of his parents at the age of 12. And then the Biblical record goes completely silent until he begins his ministry at the age of 30. We know nothing of the teenage Jesus or what his family life was like, if he even had one.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Cultural Separation from Parents

Post by Josh »

God’s plan is for either man and woman to be married, 1 husband, 1 wife. Or to be single people, like Jesus was.

Sinful, wicked man has strayed from those plans.
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