Cultural Separation from Parents

[Josh]

I would suggest that the number of transgender youth who have received medical interventions without their parents consent or knowledge is infinitesimally small.

StrawMan.jpg

Nobody in this thread has mentioned medical interventions. The thread is about culture.

Then maybe y'all could define what "promoting transgenderism" means because Ken and I were accused of trying to change the topic by talking about how we refer to students by names and nicknames that aren't on their birth certificate because the real topic of this thread is how awful it is when schools call their students by names that on their birth certificate.

The real topic of this thread is a student trying to change their sex and as part of the changing to a name that is the opppsite sex’s, and schools that explicitly keep this secret from parents.

[Ken]

StrawMan.jpg

Nobody in this thread has mentioned medical interventions. The thread is about culture.

Then maybe y'all could define what "promoting transgenderism" means because Ken and I were accused of trying to change the topic by talking about how we refer to students by names and nicknames that aren't on their birth certificate because the real topic of this thread is how awful it is when schools call their students by names that on their birth certificate.

The real topic of this thread is a student trying to change their sex and as part of the changing to a name that is the opppsite sex’s, and schools that explicitly keep this secret from parents.

I thought you conservatives argue that sex and gender are explicitly biological. Which would mean that some student using a different name changed absolutely nothing at all. Any more than say a girl who chose to wear boy's tennis shoes to school or a pair of jeans from the boy's side of the store changed nothing at all either.

[ken_sylvania]

Then maybe y'all could define what "promoting transgenderism" means because Ken and I were accused of trying to change the topic by talking about how we refer to students by names and nicknames that aren't on their birth certificate because the real topic of this thread is how awful it is when schools call their students by names that on their birth certificate.

The real topic of this thread is a student trying to change their sex and as part of the changing to a name that is the opppsite sex’s, and schools that explicitly keep this secret from parents.

I thought you conservatives argue that sex and gender are explicitly biological. Which would mean that some student using a different name changed absolutely nothing at all. Any more than say a girl who chose to wear boy's tennis shoes to school or a pair of jeans from the boy's side of the store changed nothing at all either.

For certain it won't change their sex, but for a student to try to change their sex and be supported in that endeavor by those who ought to know better there's a good chance to get the student mixed up mentally.

[RZehr]

Then maybe y'all could define what "promoting transgenderism" means because Ken and I were accused of trying to change the topic by talking about how we refer to students by names and nicknames that aren't on their birth certificate because the real topic of this thread is how awful it is when schools call their students by names that on their birth certificate.

The real topic of this thread is a student trying to change their sex and as part of the changing to a name that is the opppsite sex’s, and schools that explicitly keep this secret from parents.

I thought you conservatives argue that sex and gender are explicitly biological. Which would mean that some student using a different name changed absolutely nothing at all. Any more than say a girl who chose to wear boy's tennis shoes to school or a pair of jeans from the boy's side of the store changed nothing at all either.

On one hand you are correct. On the other hand, remember, righteousness needs to be the guiding principle. And pretending to be the opposite sex, is not righteous.

[MaxPC]

The real topic of this thread is a student trying to change their sex and as part of the changing to a name that is the opppsite sex’s, and schools that explicitly keep this secret from parents.

…remember, righteousness needs to be the guiding principle. And pretending to be the opposite sex, is not righteous.

Amen and amen. Spot on.

[Ken]

The real topic of this thread is a student trying to change their sex and as part of the changing to a name that is the opppsite sex’s, and schools that explicitly keep this secret from parents.

I thought you conservatives argue that sex and gender are explicitly biological. Which would mean that some student using a different name changed absolutely nothing at all. Any more than say a girl who chose to wear boy's tennis shoes to school or a pair of jeans from the boy's side of the store changed nothing at all either.

On one hand you are correct. On the other hand, remember, righteousness needs to be the guiding principle. And pretending to be the opposite sex, is not righteous.

"righteousness" is an utterly vague and meaningless term in this context. People on both sides of this issue all feel that they are equally righteous. And they are, in fact, all correct in that they are all being righteous to their own core set of beliefs. The only actual guide that we have for public institutions is the Constitution and system of laws that have been passed under its authority. Which emphasis principles such as equality for all rather than application some ancient verse from Genesis that is only very tangential to the topic at hand.

In any event, I tend to think all this hand-wringing by older adults, many if not most of whom don't even have children in schools, misses a lot of the point. Today's students don't obsesses about things like bathrooms. They really don't. Bathrooms have stalls and honestly student bathrooms at schools are kind of icky anyway. I will walk a long way out of my way to find a private and clean staff bathroom rather than walk into the student one right outside my classroom.

Likeways, things like names and pronouns are pretty trivial in the scheme of a student's life. In a HS setting, teachers really don't use student names all that much. Maybe when you call on students but that's not a daily thing. Pronouns get almost no use other then perhaps when two teachers are discussing a student over email or something.

About 95% of what students care about is what their peers think, not some older middle-aged science teacher thinks. They live their lives and identity on social media, in the halls at lunch and before/after school. It is their peers that validate them not what some teacher says or doesn't say. If you are a trans kid, your profile in Instagram or Discord is probably 100-times more relevant to your identity than what name a teacher uses when taking attendance.

And in any event the world of gender is not remotely binary in the way that people here seem to think it is. It is really a very wide and diverse spectrum.

For example, here at a big public high school in the Pacific Northwest as everywhere the vast majority of students are more or less gender normative so just ordinary boys and girls. But of those who are not there is really a lot of variety.

For girls I commonly get a certain type of tomboyish girl who dress in the local fashion of jeans, slouchy big hoodies, and wear old converse sneakers or boots (often unisex Doc Martin style boots). With either long hair or short hair, little or no makeup, and compared to the flashy cheerleader and girly girl types they are pretty unisex. Some are just insecure wallflower types who are just trying not to be noticed. Maybe overweight or not conventionally attractive. Some are just rugged outdoorsy types who are ordinary straight girls but are uninterested in girly stuff. One girl I have like that wants to be a welder. A few are probably gay. The school year is new so I have no idea at this point but eventually I'll see some holding hands and figure it out. They don't normally announce it. And possibly one or two might be trans or trans curious in some fashion. I have no idea unless they tell me and usually they don't. Many of them go by gender neutral nicknames whether they are gay or straight or trans or not trans. Alexandras go by Alex. Calista goes by Cal. And many already have gender neutral names like Taylor, Skyler, Angel, Chris, Jaiden, Sam, or Kai. Sometimes I even get pretty girly girl cheerleader types who announce they are gay and hang out with their girlfriends. Maybe they are, maybe they are just sick of high school boys and that is one way to put up a barrier. Maybe both. But there are the occasional girls who dress like say Taylor Swift and announce they have no use for boys.

As for boys. Most are just ordinary boys. I get the occasional openly gay boy. I have one now, a black kid who has bright pink hair and is just flamboyantly gay in mannerisms, manner of speaking and so forth. Not trans, gay. And I know from experience that no doubt a few others are gay but just not open about it, at least to teachers. But don't present as anything more than ordinary boys in school. Out of 150 students I have no boys who appear trans and who are using girls names.

So which kids do I call home about to inform parents because they are not being gender-confirmative in some way? Or do I just teach biology and treat all my students the same, give them respect as individuals, and make sure that the class is a comfortable and safe place for all (i.e. no one is getting bullied or picked on or harassed).

A lot of this discussion is utterly naïve in that people seem to believe that HS teachers and counselors have all this influence over these kids and what their identities are. We do not. Most of these kids I can barely motivate to put in a slight extra effort to raise their grade from a B to an A or pay slightly more attention in class. Or to show up to class with a charged Chromebook and writing utensil. I have absolutely zero influence over what they wear in class as long as it is within the school dress code (which is unisex) or how they self-identify in terms of gender and sexuality. There are, indeed, a lot of teachers who try to be super supportive and inclusive of all their students whether they are Black, White, Hispanic, Muslim, gay, or trans. That is actually part of the job to be welcoming and supportive of all your students so they can succeed in the class. But I don't ever see any who are promoting any sort of agenda to influence kids to be what they are not. And I honestly doubt that would even be possible. My kids personalities were pretty well formed by the time they were 4 or 5 years old. The notion that a school teacher or counselor can influence a straight HS student to be gay or a ordinary student to be trans is not something that I have seen or think happens. Teachers may be more supportive than parents in some cases. That is true. But I don't think they are turning the student into something they are not.

What I think this is really about is that most schools these days are just letting kids be who they are and a certain group of conservatives are upset that schools (and society generally) are not rigidly enforcing gender conformity like used to be they case 70 years ago in the 1950s when we lived in a completely different world. And they are uncomfortable with that.

[Szdfan]

A lot of this discussion is utterly naïve in that people seem to believe that HS teachers and counselors have all this influence over these kids and what their identities are. We do not. Most of these kids I can barely motivate to put in a slight extra effort to raise their grade from a B to an A or pay slightly more attention in class. Or to show up to class with a charged Chromebook and writing utensil. I have absolutely zero influence over what they wear in class as long as it is within the school dress code (which is unisex) or how they self-identify in terms of gender and sexuality

It's a constant struggle to get kids to put away their cellphones and somehow we're supposedly turning them into transgender Marxists.

[ken_sylvania]

I thought you conservatives argue that sex and gender are explicitly biological. Which would mean that some student using a different name changed absolutely nothing at all. Any more than say a girl who chose to wear boy's tennis shoes to school or a pair of jeans from the boy's side of the store changed nothing at all either.

On one hand you are correct. On the other hand, remember, righteousness needs to be the guiding principle. And pretending to be the opposite sex, is not righteous.

"righteousness" is an utterly vague and meaningless term in this context. People on both sides of this issue all feel that they are equally righteous. And they are, in fact, all correct in that they are all being righteous to their own core set of beliefs. The only actual guide that we have for public institutions is the Constitution and system of laws that have been passed under its authority. Which emphasis principles such as equality for all rather than application some ancient verse from Genesis that is only very tangential to the topic at hand.

In any event, I tend to think all this hand-wringing by older adults, many if not most of whom don't even have children in schools, misses a lot of the point. Today's students don't obsesses about things like bathrooms. They really don't. Bathrooms have stalls and honestly student bathrooms at schools are kind of icky anyway. I will walk a long way out of my way to find a private and clean staff bathroom rather than walk into the student one right outside my classroom.

Likeways, things like names and pronouns are pretty trivial in the scheme of a student's life. In a HS setting, teachers really don't use student names all that much. Maybe when you call on students but that's not a daily thing. Pronouns get almost no use other then perhaps when two teachers are discussing a student over email or something.

About 95% of what students care about is what their peers think, not some older middle-aged science teacher thinks. They live their lives and identity on social media, in the halls at lunch and before/after school. It is their peers that validate them not what some teacher says or doesn't say. If you are a trans kid, your profile in Instagram or Discord is probably 100-times more relevant to your identity than what name a teacher uses when taking attendance.

And in any event the world of gender is not remotely binary in the way that people here seem to think it is. It is really a very wide and diverse spectrum.

For example, here at a big public high school in the Pacific Northwest as everywhere the vast majority of students are more or less gender normative so just ordinary boys and girls. But of those who are not there is really a lot of variety.

For girls I commonly get a certain type of tomboyish girl who dress in the local fashion of jeans, slouchy big hoodies, and wear old converse sneakers or boots (often unisex Doc Martin style boots). With either long hair or short hair, little or no makeup, and compared to the flashy cheerleader and girly girl types they are pretty unisex. Some are just insecure wallflower types who are just trying not to be noticed. Maybe overweight or not conventionally attractive. Some are just rugged outdoorsy types who are ordinary straight girls but are uninterested in girly stuff. One girl I have like that wants to be a welder. A few are probably gay. The school year is new so I have no idea at this point but eventually I'll see some holding hands and figure it out. They don't normally announce it. And possibly one or two might be trans or trans curious in some fashion. I have no idea unless they tell me and usually they don't. Many of them go by gender neutral nicknames whether they are gay or straight or trans or not trans. Alexandras go by Alex. Calista goes by Cal. And many already have gender neutral names like Taylor, Skyler, Angel, Chris, Jaiden, Sam, or Kai. Sometimes I even get pretty girly girl cheerleader types who announce they are gay and hang out with their girlfriends. Maybe they are, maybe they are just sick of high school boys and that is one way to put up a barrier. Maybe both. But there are the occasional girls who dress like say Taylor Swift and announce they have no use for boys.

As for boys. Most are just ordinary boys. I get the occasional openly gay boy. I have one now, a black kid who has bright pink hair and is just flamboyantly gay in mannerisms, manner of speaking and so forth. Not trans, gay. And I know from experience that no doubt a few others are gay but just not open about it, at least to teachers. But don't present as anything more than ordinary boys in school. Out of 150 students I have no boys who appear trans and who are using girls names.

So which kids do I call home about to inform parents because they are not being gender-confirmative in some way? Or do I just teach biology and treat all my students the same, give them respect as individuals, and make sure that the class is a comfortable and safe place for all (i.e. no one is getting bullied or picked on or harassed).

A lot of this discussion is utterly naïve in that people seem to believe that HS teachers and counselors have all this influence over these kids and what their identities are. We do not. Most of these kids I can barely motivate to put in a slight extra effort to raise their grade from a B to an A or pay slightly more attention in class. Or to show up to class with a charged Chromebook and writing utensil. I have absolutely zero influence over what they wear in class as long as it is within the school dress code (which is unisex) or how they self-identify in terms of gender and sexuality. There are, indeed, a lot of teachers who try to be super supportive and inclusive of all their students whether they are Black, White, Hispanic, Muslim, gay, or trans. That is actually part of the job to be welcoming and supportive of all your students so they can succeed in the class. But I don't ever see any who are promoting any sort of agenda to influence kids to be what they are not. And I honestly doubt that would even be possible. My kids personalities were pretty well formed by the time they were 4 or 5 years old. The notion that a school teacher or counselor can influence a straight HS student to be gay or a ordinary student to be trans is not something that I have seen or think happens. Teachers may be more supportive than parents in some cases. That is true. But I don't think they are turning the student into something they are not.

What I think this is really about is that most schools these days are just letting kids be who they are and a certain group of conservatives are upset that schools (and society generally) are not rigidly enforcing gender conformity like used to be they case 70 years ago in the 1950s when we lived in a completely different world. And they are uncomfortable with that.

Quite the indictment of the public school system.

[Soloist]

I am so thankful for Christian day schools.

[Josh]

A lot of this discussion is utterly naïve in that people seem to believe that HS teachers and counselors have all this influence over these kids and what their identities are. We do not. Most of these kids I can barely motivate to put in a slight extra effort to raise their grade from a B to an A or pay slightly more attention in class. Or to show up to class with a charged Chromebook and writing utensil. I have absolutely zero influence over what they wear in class as long as it is within the school dress code (which is unisex) or how they self-identify in terms of gender and sexuality

It's a constant struggle to get kids to put away their cellphones and somehow we're supposedly turning them into transgender Marxists.

Y'know, a school could simply say that phones go in lockers and don't come back until the end of the day or when not in class. The way you and Ken describe public schools is as ones where the children are in charge of things, the teachers and administration are helpless to do anything, and of course the reason children HAVE to have cell phones is because... parents demand that they do?

Yet we've already seen that the parents' wishes can be ignored. Why not just ban cell phones at schools? Guns aren't allowed at schools, so why are cell phones?