Sattler College Turmoil

[jahertz]

I’ve heard Matthew Milioni directly state in front of me his view on baptismal regeneration, including the urgency to plant more FotW churches in more cities, so that more Mennonites who have not been immersed may be saved. He and I agreed to disagree on this issue (and I have been personally immersed so he wasn’t concerned for me specifically).

The very careful wording of this account is not lost on me. If Matthew really told you all unimmersed Mennonites are unsaved because they were not immersed, why not come out and say it?

I'm guessing it's uncontroversial in this forum that some Mennonites are unsaved, and that if so, most of those, being Mennonites, can be assumed not to have been immersed, in the same way that most North American Mennonites can be assumed not to have learned Mandarin Chinese in grade school.

I trust that if we believe such a subpopulation exists within Mennonite culture, any of us would be willing to be used by God in their salvation should we be called to that field. Nothing especially incriminating so far, unless you spin it to sound sinister.

Anyway, should some group feel a specific calling to target Mennonites for evangelism, the obvious strategy would be to plant each outreach slap in the middle of a major city, since it's cheap and easy to colonize such places and since most Mennonites can already be found clustering in large urban centers—

...Wait, something feels off about this picture. Give me a minute and I'm sure I can put my finger on it.

A key difference is that [...] we also don’t consider baptism in our church or association with our church at all required for salvation.

Doubtless there are several important differences between your church and FOTW. Happily, this is not one of them.

That’s great to hear, but you may want to consider that you might be on the “inside track” with them.

Quite likely. And letting people into your church's "inside track" who are neither members nor catechists is basically the opposite of typical One True Church behavior. Thank you for highlighting the point I was trying to make.

Could they simply publish what they believe the plan of salvation is? When asked, the answer I have got is “We simply follow the Bible”.

I don't know why they don't publish a concise statement of faith online, but FOtW have more teachings on public record than many Plain churches do, and Finny has published a book which, if I remember right, is a fairly in-depth expression of his views on many major Kingdom issues.

I've always found them extremely forthcoming about their beliefs when I asked. For best results, I'd probably try a query more specific than "what do you believe?"

[Josh]

I’ve heard Matthew Milioni directly state in front of me his view on baptismal regeneration, including the urgency to plant more FotW churches in more cities, so that more Mennonites who have not been immersed may be saved. He and I agreed to disagree on this issue (and I have been personally immersed so he wasn’t concerned for me specifically).

The very careful wording of this account is not lost on me. If Matthew really told you all unimmersed Mennonites are unsaved because they were not immersed, why not come out and say it?

I am being cautious not to say something misleading or untrue about conversations 7 years ago.

I'm guessing it's uncontroversial in this forum that some Mennonites are unsaved, and that if so, most of those, being Mennonites, can be assumed not to have been immersed, in the same way that most North American Mennonites can be assumed not to have learned Mandarin Chinese in grade school.

That wasn’t the context at all. The context was that a lot of people are missing out on salvation by accidentally not obeying the NT, and the NT teaches baptism (by immersion), therefore FotW can do great good to people who are (to quote from memory) “so close to the truth and the kingdom”, by helping Mennonites who are very close to meeting the requirements for salvation take the last step, as they otherwise meet and follow the kingdom doctrines they believe are essential for salvation.

I trust that if we believe such a subpopulation exists within Mennonite culture, any of us would be willing to be used by God in their salvation should we be called to that field. Nothing especially incriminating so far, unless you spin it to sound sinister.

Yes, Milioni did not do so in a sinister way or in bad faith. He really did sincerely believe he was helping these plain people. He and I agreed to disagree but I did not doubt his sincerity at all.

In Anabaptist history, Schwarzenau Brethren have made similar appeals and “converted” Mennonites or Amish due to a belief in the necessity of full immersion. Such folks were also sincere as well, I believe.

Anyway, should some group feel a specific calling to target Mennonites for evangelism, the obvious strategy would be to plant each outreach slap in the middle of a major city, since it's cheap and easy to colonize such places and since most Mennonites can already be found clustering in large urban centers—

...Wait, something feels off about this picture. Give me a minute and I'm sure I can put my finger on it.

I’m simply telling you what I heard and discussed. This is in a context that true hearted kingdom Christians would also be willing to move to cities, but that outreach to more cities (and possibly closer to where many plain Mennonites already live) is necessary as one can’t expect everyone to move to Boston.

Again, I appreciated their sincerity and also agreed to an extent - I think believers with careers and lifestyles compatible with city living should consider being closer to people open to be evangelised, although I wouldn’t agree it is necessary to the extent FotW people tend to think it is.

I don't know why they don't publish a concise statement of faith online, but FOtW have more information about their beliefs on public record than most Plain churches do. And I've always found them extremely forthcoming about their beliefs when I asked. For best results, I'd probably try a query more specific than "what do you believe?"

The last time I did so I got the results documented above (about baptism and salvation). It is not even clear who one should ask tho. Who is the “official representative” of FotW? Back then, they had not agreed on ordaining anyone or having any explicitly defined leadership.

It would be very helpful if FotW would simply tell us:

- Names and titles of leadership (minister, preacher, elder, overseer, bishop, presbyter, deacon, apostle, etc.)
- A summary of statement of faith, or a summary of why they don’t publish one
- An understanding of other churches they are in close fellowship with.

Virtually all plain churches maintain directories or otherwise will share the above, whether Amish, GB, Mennonite, Holdeman, Apostolic C., Charity, including otherwise independent churches (sometimes #3 being lacking there).

[Ernie]

I've always found them extremely forthcoming about their beliefs when I asked. For best results, I'd probably try a query more specific than "what do you believe?"

In the initial Sattler years, when many young people were moving to Boston, the few Anabaptist leaders who asked questions, asked questions like, "What do you believe?" (Most didn't feel a need to ask questions because they read King Jesus Claims His Church and felt there was no need to ask any further questions.)

In more recent years, Anabaptist leaders have been asking Sattler and FOTW leaders, "What do you believe about ________?" or "What is your position on ______?" or "How do you handle _______?"
When answers were given... follow up questions were asked that went something like this...
"Why then are our young people being told _________?" or "Why then are they experiencing _____?" or "Why then is ________ happening in FOTW church life?"

Eventually FOTW members began asking the same questions, which led to the large exodus the past couple years.

[Ernie]

At the following link you will find documents whose authors have consented to making these available online.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

[Judas Maccabeus]

Wow. Just Wow. Confirms all that I had heard bits and pieces of. Thanks, Weavers for being vulnerable enough to share what must have been really painful.

Blessings,

Judas Maccabeus

[Judas Maccabeus]

I’ve heard Matthew Milioni directly state in front of me his view on baptismal regeneration, including the urgency to plant more FotW churches in more cities, so that more Mennonites who have not been immersed may be saved. He and I agreed to disagree on this issue (and I have been personally immersed so he wasn’t concerned for me specifically).

The very careful wording of this account is not lost on me. If Matthew really told you all unimmersed Mennonites are unsaved because they were not immersed, why not come out and say it?

I am being cautious not to say something misleading or untrue about conversations 7 years ago.

I'm guessing it's uncontroversial in this forum that some Mennonites are unsaved, and that if so, most of those, being Mennonites, can be assumed not to have been immersed, in the same way that most North American Mennonites can be assumed not to have learned Mandarin Chinese in grade school.

That wasn’t the context at all. The context was that a lot of people are missing out on salvation by accidentally not obeying the NT, and the NT teaches baptism (by immersion), therefore FotW can do great good to people who are (to quote from memory) “so close to the truth and the kingdom”, by helping Mennonites who are very close to meeting the requirements for salvation take the last step, as they otherwise meet and follow the kingdom doctrines they believe are essential for salvation.

I trust that if we believe such a subpopulation exists within Mennonite culture, any of us would be willing to be used by God in their salvation should we be called to that field. Nothing especially incriminating so far, unless you spin it to sound sinister.

Yes, Milioni did not do so in a sinister way or in bad faith. He really did sincerely believe he was helping these plain people. He and I agreed to disagree but I did not doubt his sincerity at all.

In Anabaptist history, Schwarzenau Brethren have made similar appeals and “converted” Mennonites or Amish due to a belief in the necessity of full immersion. Such folks were also sincere as well, I believe.

Anyway, should some group feel a specific calling to target Mennonites for evangelism, the obvious strategy would be to plant each outreach slap in the middle of a major city, since it's cheap and easy to colonize such places and since most Mennonites can already be found clustering in large urban centers—

...Wait, something feels off about this picture. Give me a minute and I'm sure I can put my finger on it.

I’m simply telling you what I heard and discussed. This is in a context that true hearted kingdom Christians would also be willing to move to cities, but that outreach to more cities (and possibly closer to where many plain Mennonites already live) is necessary as one can’t expect everyone to move to Boston.

Again, I appreciated their sincerity and also agreed to an extent - I think believers with careers and lifestyles compatible with city living should consider being closer to people open to be evangelised, although I wouldn’t agree it is necessary to the extent FotW people tend to think it is.

I don't know why they don't publish a concise statement of faith online, but FOtW have more information about their beliefs on public record than most Plain churches do. And I've always found them extremely forthcoming about their beliefs when I asked. For best results, I'd probably try a query more specific than "what do you believe?"

The last time I did so I got the results documented above (about baptism and salvation). It is not even clear who one should ask tho. Who is the “official representative” of FotW? Back then, they had not agreed on ordaining anyone or having any explicitly defined leadership.

It would be very helpful if FotW would simply tell us:

- Names and titles of leadership (minister, preacher, elder, overseer, bishop, presbyter, deacon, apostle, etc.)
- A summary of statement of faith, or a summary of why they don’t publish one
- An understanding of other churches they are in close fellowship with.

Virtually all plain churches maintain directories or otherwise will share the above, whether Amish, GB, Mennonite, Holdeman, Apostolic C., Charity, including otherwise independent churches (sometimes #3 being lacking there).

Josh, I have heard the same thing, in bits and pieces. In my fairly long conversation with Finny some years ago, I walked away with the feeling "This man is not used to pushback." The argument for Baptismal Regeneration is the same defective line of reasoning we have seen since the Restoration movement popped up in the second great awakening.

For all. While Josh and I disagree on a number of points, I have never found him unreliable in any way. He called them as he heard them. I have heard many of the same things as well, but in bits and pieces.

[Josh]

I would like to emphasise that I have really appreciated Matthew Milioni, Finny Kuravilla, and Dean Taylor - even if I don’t agree with them on a wide variety of areas of doctrine and practice. I do believe they are all sincere in having a heart for the kingdom of heaven and also a passion for seeing seekers come into good, Jesus-following churches and a heart for the lost as well. Both Finny and Dean have spent countless hours talking to and sharing the gospel with people who are not yet believers.

With that said, we seekers are often very hamfisted about promoting our own doctrines and ideas for church growth - often saying and doing things we come to regret later. I believe FotW leaders may find themselves in that position. My conversations with them on that personal of a level are 7 years out of date by now.

I feel finding unity is important so I have encouraged the idea of finding unity and bridges between FotW and groups that already share some doctrines, like Brethren who are already on board with full immersion and may also share beliefs in baptismal regeneration, and with ACs, who immersionist at least.

[Ernie]

Wow. Just Wow. Confirms all that I had heard bits and pieces of. Thanks, Weavers for being vulnerable enough to share what must have been really painful.

Within the last year, I have interacted with about 15 families who have left FOTW, in addition to leadership at Sattler who have resigned. There are at least 15 more stories very similar to this. Same book. Different chapter.

Now... there have been occasions where people have written really candid "letters" to me describing how I didn't relate the way they expected or hoped for me to relate to them. Both of them have received apologies and attempts to restore the relationship.

I expect that the 15+ folks with stories about the leaders at Sattler/FOTW made some big mistakes along the way and that the Sattler/FOTW leaders could write long open letters about some of them.

But in the end, the only difference that really matters to me is whether people can humble themselves, admit to making mistakes, apologize for the hurts they have caused others, and assume that they are human, and therefore don't have everything figured out correctly.
The opposite is those who defend themselves, refuse to back down, do not take advice, do not listen well, and attack or belittle the people who critique them or differ with them.

There are two kinds of people in the world. The humble. The proud.

[ken_sylvania]

That's exactly what Ernie said.

ME: So are you saying that Dean never intended to start a Mennonite church at all?
ERNIE: Correct.

How is this a false accusation?

Art thou a master in Sattler, and knowest not the difference between Mennonite, Brethren, "Kingdom Christian", and Anabaptist?
You are accusing Ernie of saying that Dean never intended to start an Anabaptist church, when in fact he said Dean didn't intend to start a Mennonite church but would have liked to start a "kingdom christian" church.

I'm not accusing Ernie of making false accusations, as I've already stated.

But you did claim that Ernie said Dean never intended to start an Anabaptist church. And you said that if Ernie's statement is true, then the claim that Finny opposed an Anabaptist church starting in Boston is a false accusation. Ernie stated that Finny opposed the Kingdom Christian type church that Dean was working toward organizing.

Ernie made both statements, and you said that if the one is true then the other is false. How is this not an accusation that Ernie made either a false statement or a false accusation?

[jahertz]

But you did claim that Ernie said Dean never intended to start an Anabaptist church. And you said that if Ernie's statement is true, then the claim that Finny opposed an Anabaptist church starting in Boston is a false accusation. Ernie stated that Finny opposed the Kingdom Christian type church that Dean was working toward organizing.

Ernie made both statements, and you said that if the one is true then the other is false. How is this not an accusation that Ernie made either a false statement or a false accusation?

If I'm understanding your argument here, it depends on treating "Kingdom Christian" and "Anabaptist" as synonyms, or at least nested categories.

I don't use "Kingdom Christian" and Anabaptist as synonyms but as distinct categories that partly overlap.

If brothereicher and Ernie are using those terms in roughly the same way I do—and it seems to me they are—then as brothereicher said, Ernie has not contradicted himself. He has merely refuted the popular rumor that it was an Anabaptist church which Finny opposed in Boston.