No human remains found 2 years after claims of ‘mass graves’ in Canada

[Szdfan]

Really. So this is just an amusement to you? OK.

Not at all. I think that if my primary intent was to convert you to my way of thinking, this is the wrong format to do that.

I'm truly curious what exactly you are trying to do then. If you believe what you've been saying here, then you think I'm wrong. But you don't want me to change my mind and believe like you, because then life would be boring. Are you wanting me to stay wrong?

I’m arguing my perspective and I think you’re wrong, but I don’t think most people here change their mind very often based on the discussions we have. So while it would be nice if you changed your mind, I don’t have an expectation that I’m going to do that.

I think changing people’s minds requires a deeper level of relationship than is possible between strangers arguing with each other on a web forum.

I value discussion and argument as their own thing. Participating in this forum helps me process my own thoughts and beliefs. Sometimes people will make points that I haven’t considered and it will give me something to consider. I do value the perspectives of some regular posters here. I’m here because I’d rather talk with people that I don’t agree with rather than just people who do.

So if I change your mind, great! Brownie points for me, but I’m not here to be intentionally evangelistic about my way of thinking. I’m not interested in saving you.

[ken_sylvania]

Not at all. I think that if my primary intent was to convert you to my way of thinking, this is the wrong format to do that.

I'm truly curious what exactly you are trying to do then. If you believe what you've been saying here, then you think I'm wrong. But you don't want me to change my mind and believe like you, because then life would be boring. Are you wanting me to stay wrong?

I’m arguing my perspective and I think you’re wrong, but I don’t think most people here change their mind very often based on the discussions we have. So while it would be nice if you changed your mind, I don’t have an expectation that I’m going to do that.

I think changing people’s minds requires a deeper level of relationship than is possible between strangers arguing with each other on a web forum.

I value discussion and argument as their own thing. Participating in this forum helps me process my own thoughts and beliefs. Sometimes people will make points that I haven’t considered and it will give me something to consider. I do value the perspectives of some regular posters here. I’m here because I’d rather talk with people that I don’t agree with rather than just people who do.

So if I change your mind, great! Brownie points for me, but I’m not here to be intentionally evangelistic about my way of thinking. I’m not interested in saving you.

I'll try and make sure I meet expectations!

[Szdfan]

I'm truly curious what exactly you are trying to do then. If you believe what you've been saying here, then you think I'm wrong. But you don't want me to change my mind and believe like you, because then life would be boring. Are you wanting me to stay wrong?

I’m arguing my perspective and I think you’re wrong, but I don’t think most people here change their mind very often based on the discussions we have. So while it would be nice if you changed your mind, I don’t have an expectation that I’m going to do that.

I think changing people’s minds requires a deeper level of relationship than is possible between strangers arguing with each other on a web forum.

I value discussion and argument as their own thing. Participating in this forum helps me process my own thoughts and beliefs. Sometimes people will make points that I haven’t considered and it will give me something to consider. I do value the perspectives of some regular posters here. I’m here because I’d rather talk with people that I don’t agree with rather than just people who do.

So if I change your mind, great! Brownie points for me, but I’m not here to be intentionally evangelistic about my way of thinking. I’m not interested in saving you.

I'll try and make sure I meet expectations!

I have no doubt you will.

I should add that I do have online spaces where I hang out with people that I do (mostly) agree with -- mostly disaffected CMs and ex-CMs. While I didn't grow up CM, I did grow up adjacent to it and only now in my 40s, am I really starting to unpack the ways that CM theology and culture shaped me. MD is part of that inner dialectic within myself and it's one more conversation partner of sorts (I also hang out online with train freaks, but unlike Steve, I'm interested in steam locomotives and passenger trains).

I am a former missionary kid. I spent my formative years in another culture. I've spent most of my childhood being a minority -- as an American in Germany and then as a white kid in a majority-black neighborhood in suburban Chicago. I am somehow more comfortable being around people who aren't like me than I am around people who are. Even now, I'm a bleeding-heart liberal in a deeply conservative southeastern Colorado rural town.

I'm an outsider and in a lot of ways, that's what I'm comfortable with, even if it gets lonely. So I am more comfortable with y'all who I disagree with than I am being around lots of people that think like me.

For me, these questions about culture get to the core of who I am. I am what you call a "third culture" person, which is what happens to the children of ex-pats and immigrants. My parents are one culture, the culture we live in is a second culture and we make up a third culture, which is a kind of synthesis between the two. I am both German and American, even though I've lived in the US for over twenty years. Third-culture kids straddle two different cultures.

So for me, this question of cultural genocide, the policy of stealing native children in order to acculturate them to white American / European culture is a sin because it rejects the idea that we are all made in the image of God. That doesn't mean that other cultures don't have problems or that they don't need to change -- both Neto and you are correct about treating cultures as museum pieces -- but there is a difference between organic cultural change (because all cultures change over time) and a dominant coercive force suppressing another culture in order to destroy it. The destruction of native cultures was US and Canadian policy and Christians are complicit with that.

The last Indian schools in the US closed in the 90s. This isn't ancient history.

So I think the hard work for missiology is to acknowledge the role that Christian missions have played in this history and to make corrections -- to find ways of sharing the Gospel of Jesus that are uncoupled from white American / European culture and conscious of the power imbalance between missions and the people they're serving. For example, when I was a pastor, Mountain States Conference was developing a relationship with a Mennonite conference in Mexico and the representatives from that conference asked us to not send money because it created conflict between the Mexican churches. They did want us to treat them as equals in Christ. These are the thorny kinds of issues that I think mission efforts need to work through.

Part of the reason, I react so vehemently to Ned's comments is because I think it demonstrates that unhealthy impulse that we the white Christians with all the money are going to swoop into the lives of another group and save them. I think that's arrogant and unbiblical. We don't save people -- that's the work of Jesus Christ. When missionaries come into a high-poverty community with the intention of saving or rescuing the locals, they demonstrate a lack of boundaries that potentially can cause more harm than good.

I do think that many of the Christians who ran the residential schools thought they were saving native children, but what they did was violent and traumatic and contributed to the problems on the reservations today.

[Ken]

The last Indian schools in the US closed in the 90s. This isn't ancient history.

While I agree with most of what you just wrote, one point of correction. Four Federally-run off-reservation Indian boarding schools still exist. There is one about 40 minutes down the road from me just north of Salem Oregon - the others are the Sherman Indian School in Riverside, California, Flandreau Indian School in Flandreau, South Dakota, and Riverside Indian School in Anadarko, Oklahoma. There are many more Federally-operated Indian boarding schools still in operation but the rest are on reservations.

This is the one in Oregon: https://chemawa.bie.edu/

It has its own history of controversy and abuse: https://www.opb.org/news/series/chemawa ... em-oregon/ and https://www.opb.org/article/2022/06/28/ ... men-audit/



Also of relevance to this thread, although this is the US not Canada: https://www.koin.com/news/education/hea ... stigation/

“The Department’s investigation has already identified marked or unmarked burial sites at approximately 53 different schools across the Federal Indian boarding school System,” the report stated. “As the investigation continues, the Department expects the number of identified burial sites to increase.”

Researcher and MSU Doctoral Student Marsha Small said she believes one of those sites is located in Oregon.

“A lot of people don’t know about these tragedies, these atrocities,” Small said. “I ask, ‘what if it was your children?’ And that’s how I approach every cemetery.”

Using ground-penetrating radar (GPR) to survey burial sites across the US, Small has devoted years to researching sites to help locate the unidentified remains of native people.

According to Small, surveys conducted on the grounds of Chemawa Indian School in Salem have detected more than 200 remains.

While Small said she believes in the importance of her research, she told KOIN 6 News, “I used to be able to go in there and come out pretty okay, but it’s getting more hard to do that.”

As the only Federal Indian Boarding school still running in Oregon, Chemawa Indian School operates differently than it used to. But Small says evidence of the school’s brutal history can still be found at the nearby school cemetery which she claims holds marked and unmarked graves.

Out of respect for those buried, and fear of ‘sensationalizing’ her findings, Small declined to give an exact number for the remains discovered. However, she told KOIN 6 News she intends to continue to conduct GPR surveys of the school and she expects her findings to grow.

“We have remains in there which are historic,” Small stated. “These are over a 100-year-old remains, so we’re going to find more. And more than likely, there are going to be more reflections than there are markers.”

Despite criticisms that the Federal Indian Boarding School Initiative could be re-traumatizing for Indigenous people, both Kennedy and Small said they are glad the US Government is finally digging into the hard truths surrounding its history.

More info and pictures here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... names.html

[barnhart]

Boarding schools for Native children exist in Canada as well but now they are funded and administrated by groups of small first nations. My wife knows the principal of one in northern Ontario. The leadership, and maybe all the staff are native, so it's not like the boarding schools of old. The students go home for breaks in the school year, the staff are people they know or at least know where they are from. The vibe is entirely different.

[HondurasKeiser]

There are, in fact, tribes in Brazil where drunkenness has become something very close to a "cultural value". This can be brought about by well-meaning people, "enablers" who act like the minority people can do no wrong. That is also a form of paternalism, just like a parent who defends their child's behavior, no matter what it is. (A Brazilian missionary told this to me, how it felt to him, when a certain American missionary treated him and the other members of the Brazilian mission like that. It is not really flattering.) These people like to pretend that they are "fully acculturated", just like the nationals, or natives, which ever the case may be.

But back to these spoiled tribes in Brazil. They have been given everything they need, or at least everything their benefactors THINK they need. Someone earlier mentioned keeping native peoples like museum pieces. That happened big time in Brazil, with many tribes moved to the Xingu Park. No missionaries were allowed to enter there, and the people weren't allowed to leave the Parque Xingu. The government's interest in this was two-fold (at least): prevent cultural change (especially religious change) so that anthropologists could observe the cultures, and to get these tribal groups out of land areas they wanted to develop, usually for the oil industry, or for settling poor Brazilians from the slums (favelas) in the large cities. My second cousin did a NT translation for a tribe like this (not in the Parque Xingu, however), where alcohol abuse was rampant, even young mothers being alcoholics. They were given everything, so there was no reason to work, and so they lost their self-worth, and in the process, a great part of their culture, often the very best characteristics of it.

I would have to go back & re-read previous comments here in order to properly credit the correct person (or persons), but it was already mentioned that missionaries should "self-reflect" - be able to step back and see their own culture for what it is. I think this is very difficult to do w/o being heavily exposed to another, different culture. Ask questions, like what is the central cultural value of my "in-group"? When it comes down to the nitty-gritty, what motivates me? For most Westerners, I will suggest, it pretty much comes down to personal profit. In contrast, most tribal groups value relationships much more highly, and one evidence of this is what anthropologists call reciprocity. Reciprocity may look similar to the outsider, but it is not like bartering, or trading. There, the value of what I am giving and what I am getting is carefully compared. Reciprocity does involve the expectation that something will be coming back to me at some point, but there is very little thought of the "comparable value" in the minds of the people. The focus is on the building of the relationship.
This difference can even be seen in a comparison between American & Brazilian business practices. Here in the States, if you keep going back to the same business, there is a sort of expectation that as you become a long-time customer, you will get a "better deal". (Some Christians think their fellow believers should always give them a great deal, but that is another whole ball of wax, but is also an outworking of that capitalistic value system.) In Brazil, it works in the opposite direction. When you first do business with a company, you will get treated very well. Gradually a relationship is formed, one where the business owner begins to see you as "My Customer". So instead of the deals getting better, they can get worse, at least from the customer's point of view. They may be indignant if they find out that you went someplace else, because you are "their customer", because in a sense, they have invested in you during the period of time that the relationship was being formed. Which system is right? Who has the "right" to be upset when things do not go as they expected? It is a clash of cultural values. Who is right? I do not know. But it certainly helps to be aware of what is happening. (Another evidence of the Brazilian cultural value of relationship can be seen in their driving habits. Brazilian drivers are, for the most part, extremely impatient on the road. Any vehicle ahead of them is the automatic target to be passed. They drive as though they are in a terrific hurry. And they are, because they are in a rush to get someplace where relationship is possible. So Rush, Rush, Rush, then they have "all of the time in the world". It's puzzling for Americans, because we can understand the rush, but not the extreme calm or slow-down immediately upon arrival. We do not value relationships like they do. We can learn from them.)

Neto…this is fascinating and you just put your finger on 2-3 things I’ve noticed in Honduras over my 15 years here. Reciprocity is absolutely the way the culture, especially the poor, operate. If I hire someone, even a close friend, to do some work; if I ask them to name a price for their labor they shrug and tell me “lo que nace de tu corazón “ “whatever is born out of your heart”. As a northerner, that’s exceedingly frustrating as I want to give them a fair price and expect them to know better than I what their labor is worth. However, when it comes time to pay, it’s clear that I had better have a big heart….I hear stories all the time from friends complaining about low wages at so and so’s house/business. I always feel the pressure to pay more than what I originally would have priced the job.

Favors are easily given here but there’s often an expectation that they be accompanied by money as a form of gratitude “algo para el fresco” or reciprocal favors in the future.

The other 2 examples you give, businesses and traffic, are spot on as well.

[MaxPC]

There are, in fact, tribes in Brazil where drunkenness has become something very close to a "cultural value". This can be brought about by well-meaning people, "enablers" who act like the minority people can do no wrong. That is also a form of paternalism, just like a parent who defends their child's behavior, no matter what it is. (A Brazilian missionary told this to me, how it felt to him, when a certain American missionary treated him and the other members of the Brazilian mission like that. It is not really flattering.) These people like to pretend that they are "fully acculturated", just like the nationals, or natives, which ever the case may be.

But back to these spoiled tribes in Brazil. They have been given everything they need, or at least everything their benefactors THINK they need. Someone earlier mentioned keeping native peoples like museum pieces. That happened big time in Brazil, with many tribes moved to the Xingu Park. No missionaries were allowed to enter there, and the people weren't allowed to leave the Parque Xingu. The government's interest in this was two-fold (at least): prevent cultural change (especially religious change) so that anthropologists could observe the cultures, and to get these tribal groups out of land areas they wanted to develop, usually for the oil industry, or for settling poor Brazilians from the slums (favelas) in the large cities. My second cousin did a NT translation for a tribe like this (not in the Parque Xingu, however), where alcohol abuse was rampant, even young mothers being alcoholics. They were given everything, so there was no reason to work, and so they lost their self-worth, and in the process, a great part of their culture, often the very best characteristics of it.

I would have to go back & re-read previous comments here in order to properly credit the correct person (or persons), but it was already mentioned that missionaries should "self-reflect" - be able to step back and see their own culture for what it is. I think this is very difficult to do w/o being heavily exposed to another, different culture. Ask questions, like what is the central cultural value of my "in-group"? When it comes down to the nitty-gritty, what motivates me? For most Westerners, I will suggest, it pretty much comes down to personal profit. In contrast, most tribal groups value relationships much more highly, and one evidence of this is what anthropologists call reciprocity. Reciprocity may look similar to the outsider, but it is not like bartering, or trading. There, the value of what I am giving and what I am getting is carefully compared. Reciprocity does involve the expectation that something will be coming back to me at some point, but there is very little thought of the "comparable value" in the minds of the people. The focus is on the building of the relationship.
This difference can even be seen in a comparison between American & Brazilian business practices. Here in the States, if you keep going back to the same business, there is a sort of expectation that as you become a long-time customer, you will get a "better deal". (Some Christians think their fellow believers should always give them a great deal, but that is another whole ball of wax, but is also an outworking of that capitalistic value system.) In Brazil, it works in the opposite direction. When you first do business with a company, you will get treated very well. Gradually a relationship is formed, one where the business owner begins to see you as "My Customer". So instead of the deals getting better, they can get worse, at least from the customer's point of view. They may be indignant if they find out that you went someplace else, because you are "their customer", because in a sense, they have invested in you during the period of time that the relationship was being formed. Which system is right? Who has the "right" to be upset when things do not go as they expected? It is a clash of cultural values. Who is right? I do not know. But it certainly helps to be aware of what is happening. (Another evidence of the Brazilian cultural value of relationship can be seen in their driving habits. Brazilian drivers are, for the most part, extremely impatient on the road. Any vehicle ahead of them is the automatic target to be passed. They drive as though they are in a terrific hurry. And they are, because they are in a rush to get someplace where relationship is possible. So Rush, Rush, Rush, then they have "all of the time in the world". It's puzzling for Americans, because we can understand the rush, but not the extreme calm or slow-down immediately upon arrival. We do not value relationships like they do. We can learn from them.)

Neto…this is fascinating and you just put your finger on 2-3 things I’ve noticed in Honduras over my 15 years here. Reciprocity is absolutely the way the culture, especially the poor, operate. If I hire someone, even a close friend, to do some work; if I ask them to name a price for their labor they shrug and tell me “lo que nace de tu corazón “ “whatever is born out of your heart”. As a northerner, that’s exceedingly frustrating as I want to give them a fair price and expect them to know better than I what their labor is worth. However, when it comes time to pay, it’s clear that I had better have a big heart….I hear stories all the time from friends complaining about low wages at so and so’s house/business. I always feel the pressure to pay more than what I originally would have priced the job.

Favors are easily given here but there’s often an expectation that they be accompanied by money as a form of gratitude “algo para el fresco” or reciprocal favors in the future.

The other 2 examples you give, businesses and traffic, are spot on as well.

Neto and HK: Spot on.

[temporal1]

MATT WALSH is not ok with hoaxes. Or overly zealous destructive activists. Or pandering politicians.

2 weeks ago / The Newest And Most Shameless Hoax To Demonize Christians / 19min


It’s the result of gov offering valuable incentives for victimhood. Unintended consequences.
Lust for power, legal protections, access to public funds.

[Falco Knotwise]

Here's actual first hand testimony of how abusive those residential schools really were! Canadian playwright Tomson Highway explains how bad it really was for indigenous Canadians to be forced by the state into residential schools to be indoctrinated by Jesuits — before the Second Vatican Council.

Even the person doing the interview seems taken aback by his response!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gGgLzDJFf98

Very touching photo of Justin Trudeau kneeling at mass graves with Teddy Bear.

Pope Francis also went on a "Penance Pilgrimage" to apologize for the horrors, too.

[Ken]

Also I would point out that the fact that they did not discover a mass grave at one particular location at one particular school doesn't mean that abusive practices were not the norm at Indian boarding schools in Canada or the US. We have massive amounts of information to suggest that they were.

We also know that many students went missing and did in fact die in the custody of Indian boarding schools. That is not a hoax. That is history. There is an immense amount of documentation and evidence to that effect. What we do not know is what happened to all or many of them because the boarding schools and government kept such poor records and often cases on records at all. Or simply destroyed records deliberately.