No human remains found 2 years after claims of ‘mass graves’ in Canada

[NedFlanders]

Why make us people who are white suffer today for something we had zero involvement in.

Two years ago an ecological sensitive track of land was planning on being logged near where we live. There was big protests and fuss. Eventually natives laid claim and so under taxes payers expense this land was giving to natives who have never lived in this area for hundreds of years (none of them live that long either). My family lives in the area but we have no rights and pay the natives to give it to them.

Then what do the natives do? They log the land and leave it a mess. And then they sold the land…. There was lots of news about the natives saving the land but none about what they did with it…

Great job all those who support natives who aren’t here to see what is going on.

[Ken]

Why make us people who are white suffer today for something we had zero involvement in.

Two years ago an ecological sensitive track of land was planning on being logged near where we live. There was big protests and fuss. Eventually natives laid claim and so under taxes payers expense this land was giving to natives who have never lived in this area for hundreds of years (none of them live that long either). My family lives in the area but we have no rights and pay the natives to give it to them.

Then what do the natives do? They log the land and leave it a mess. And then they sold the land…. There was lots of news about the natives saving the land but none about what they did with it…

Great job all those who support natives who aren’t here to see what is going on.

Oh, so now it is Native Americans who are responsible for the clear-cutting of our forests? Right. Where specifically are you talking about? I've lived most of my life in the Pacific Northwest and Alaska. It isn't Native Groups responsible for clear cutting the forests. It is companies like Weyerhaeuser and Georgia Pacific.

Where exactly is this place you are speaking of? They either had legitimate legal claims to the territory or they didn't under the law. What makes your family's claim to the land any more legitimate? And what tax dollars were involved?

[Nomad]

I know people whose family members didn't come back from residential school. I know a man who was sexually assaulted at a residential school to the extent that he was incapable of producing children.

The entire purpose of these schools was to separate native children from their families and to raise them in a white culture, thereby destroying native culture.

These kids were often kidnapped by the Canadian and American governments and forced to attend these schools without the consent of their families.

According to Article 2, Section E of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, kidnapping children en masse in order to assimilate them into another a culture is genocide. Regardless of whether the allegations of mass graves is true or not, the residential schools were part of a program of genocide against native people.

This happened in Oregon with the Grand Ronde Tribes. The children were separated from their parents and sent to a boarding school in PA in order to have "Christian" values instilled into them. There are eyewitness accounts of children being beaten if they spoke in their tribal tongue instead of English. Its pretty sad that Christianity got attached to that thinking...pretty dark.

[Szdfan]

It is time for people to actually come here and see for yourself. If you want something done come and support our CA church plants that have labored for years trying to help these people get out from under pagan evil witchcraft practices that have them bound in sexually abusing their own daughters and nieces as sex toys.

I'm not opposed to Christian missions, but I do think that mission programs today need to be careful because of the fact that they have historically been used as tools of colonialism and imperialism. So for example, instead of sending lots of missionaries to Africa, Mennonite Board of Missions tries to support local churches and indigenous denominations as equal partners. I had an uncle and aunt do a stint in Kenya developing curriculum to train local pastors. I'm myself a former missionary kid. My Dad continues to work for the Russian Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists and is currently in the process of arranging a delegation to visit the Baptist Church in China as part of their efforts to build relationships between the two denominations. I think that's appropriate.

At a minimum, I think missionaries need to understand and respect the culture they are evangelizing to. We Christians also have a problem with sexual abuse and incest and I don't think are in a position to condemn other religions until we fix our own problems. I believe helping native people out of cycles of abuse is a Godly and loving thing to do (as it is to help anyone). I also think that believing our own culture is superior to those we are evangelizing and that mission work is not just about leading people to Christ, but also acculturating them to our culture probably causes more harm than it helps.

Are these CA missions partnering with local indigenous churches and sharing Christ within the local cultural context or are they trying to import (impose?) CA culture as well?

I 100% agree that a person who has a problem with sexual abuse or incest is not in a position to evangelize. I completely disagree with the implication that no conservative Anabaptist is fit to preach against false religions until there is no sin left among CAs. If that were the case, Jesus Christ himself would be disqualified as an evangelist because he had a disciple who was a thief.

I'm not saying that CAs shouldn't preach because there's sin. What I am saying is that Mennonites shouldn't claim that sexual abuse in other cultures as a "cultural practice" (versus other causes) because someone on the outside could say the same about Mennonites and Anabaptists. Mary Byler has described the two or three busloads of Amish that showed up at her rapist brother's court trial in order to support the brother who raped her (including her mother). Did this happen because of "cultural practice" or is something else going on?

I think missions today require a certain amount of humility because of the role Christian missions has played in the oppression and subjection of indigenous people. Missions today require a certain amount of self-reflection.

I find the framing that CAs are rescuing native people from their own culture to be arrogant -- a kind of "white savior" type of thinking that's akin to the "Kill the Indian, save the man" motto I quoted earlier. I'm not saying that CAs shouldn't have missions to native people, but that self-reflection should also be a part of that mission -- whether or not missionaries today are repeating the same mistakes that Christian missionaries did in the past.

I don't see that kind of self-reflection in a paragraph like this:

It is time for people to actually come here and see for yourself. If you want something done come and support our CA church plants that have labored for years trying to help these people get out from under pagan evil witchcraft practices that have them bound in sexually abusing their own daughters and nieces as sex toys.

I see this statement reflecting the kind of arrogance that drove the creation of the residence schools in the first place -- that native people need CAs to be rescued from their own culture. What role did Christian missionaries play in the genocidal policies of the US and Canadian government which resulted in traumatized native communities and the conditions on reservations today?

[Szdfan]

Why make us people who are white suffer today for something we had zero involvement in

How are white people suffering? Is feeling bad or guilty about the past suffering?

[NedFlanders]

Why make us people who are white suffer today for something we had zero involvement in

How are white people suffering? Is feeling bad or guilty about the past suffering?

Over 40 billion dollars giving out by the Canadian government because of mass graves that don’t exist is 2x the amount of money it would take to feed all the starving and malnourished people in the world. This helps inflation grow here that is so high that my cost of living has doubled to the point of working two full time jobs to feed my family who then I rarely see. I’d be happy to rarely see my family if I knew it was going to build the kingdom of God but instead other “Christians” are distracted by “social injustices” and money rather than wanting to be active in actually personally helping people! We are all suffering! So we should all shut our mouths and do something. I do spend time with these people personally and frankly your not helping them out of their distress by focusing on social injustices not on personal responsibility but helping them stay their…
Time to quit spending time with the armchair quarterbacks…

[ken_sylvania]

I'm not opposed to Christian missions, but I do think that mission programs today need to be careful because of the fact that they have historically been used as tools of colonialism and imperialism. So for example, instead of sending lots of missionaries to Africa, Mennonite Board of Missions tries to support local churches and indigenous denominations as equal partners. I had an uncle and aunt do a stint in Kenya developing curriculum to train local pastors. I'm myself a former missionary kid. My Dad continues to work for the Russian Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists and is currently in the process of arranging a delegation to visit the Baptist Church in China as part of their efforts to build relationships between the two denominations. I think that's appropriate.

At a minimum, I think missionaries need to understand and respect the culture they are evangelizing to. We Christians also have a problem with sexual abuse and incest and I don't think are in a position to condemn other religions until we fix our own problems. I believe helping native people out of cycles of abuse is a Godly and loving thing to do (as it is to help anyone). I also think that believing our own culture is superior to those we are evangelizing and that mission work is not just about leading people to Christ, but also acculturating them to our culture probably causes more harm than it helps.

Are these CA missions partnering with local indigenous churches and sharing Christ within the local cultural context or are they trying to import (impose?) CA culture as well?

I 100% agree that a person who has a problem with sexual abuse or incest is not in a position to evangelize. I completely disagree with the implication that no conservative Anabaptist is fit to preach against false religions until there is no sin left among CAs. If that were the case, Jesus Christ himself would be disqualified as an evangelist because he had a disciple who was a thief.

I'm not saying that CAs shouldn't preach because there's sin. What I am saying is that Mennonites shouldn't claim that sexual abuse in other cultures as a "cultural practice" (versus other causes) because someone on the outside could say the same about Mennonites and Anabaptists. Mary Byler has described the two or three busloads of Amish that showed up at her rapist brother's court trial in order to support the brother who raped her (including her mother). Did this happen because of "cultural practice" or is something else going on?

I think missions today require a certain amount of humility because of the role Christian missions has played in the oppression and subjection of indigenous people. Missions today require a certain amount of self-reflection.

I find the framing that CAs are rescuing native people from their own culture to be arrogant -- a kind of "white savior" type of thinking that's akin to the "Kill the Indian, save the man" motto I quoted earlier. I'm not saying that CA missions shouldn't have missions to native people, but that self-reflection should also be a part of that mission -- whether or not missionaries today are repeating the same mistakes that Christian missionaries did in the past.

I don't see that kind of self-reflection in a paragraph like this:

It is time for people to actually come here and see for yourself. If you want something done come and support our CA church plants that have labored for years trying to help these people get out from under pagan evil witchcraft practices that have them bound in sexually abusing their own daughters and nieces as sex toys.

I see this statement reflecting the kind of arrogance that drove the creation of the residence schools in the first place -- that native people need CAs to be rescued from their own culture. What role did Christian missionaries play in the genocidal policies of the US and Canadian government which resulted in traumatized native communities and the conditions on reservations today?

I don't know about Mary Byler, but I agree there are some "CA" communities where immorality and abuse does seem to be a way of life, AKA cultural practice. That kind of cultural practice has got to be destroyed.

Yes, self-examination is absulutely necessary for our daily life, and it certainly is important to consider whether various aspects of our culture are truly better, or if they are just different.

What is the purpose of going to all nations and preaching the gospel if we have nothing better to offer the heathen that what they already have?

There of course have been many different types of "missionaries" over the years, but I think it's fair to say that it wasn't the work of Christian missionaries that traumatized native communities or that contributed to the wretchedness in communities today.

[ken_sylvania]

I'm not saying that CAs shouldn't preach because there's sin. What I am saying is that Mennonites shouldn't claim that sexual abuse in other cultures as a "cultural practice" (versus other causes) because someone on the outside could say the same about Mennonites and Anabaptists.

I take it, then, that in order to be consistent you will refrain from criticizing CA mission efforts because someone on the outside could criticize your own mission efforts....

[Szdfan]

I'm not saying that CAs shouldn't preach because there's sin. What I am saying is that Mennonites shouldn't claim that sexual abuse in other cultures as a "cultural practice" (versus other causes) because someone on the outside could say the same about Mennonites and Anabaptists.

I take it, then, that in order to be consistent you will refrain from criticizing CA mission efforts because someone on the outside could criticize your own mission efforts....

I wasn't criticizing CA mission efforts here. At this point, nobody in this thread has mentioned any specific CA mission efforts with Canadian tribes -- just that we're supposed to support them because they're "laboring" to native people from their own evil, pagan culture. It's that attitude I'm criticizing, but I don't know any specific efforts.

And go ahead if you want to criticize the Mennonite Board of Missions. I don't think anyone gets it completely right and there are always things that can be improved.

[Szdfan]

I don't know about Mary Byler, but I agree there are some "CA" communities where immorality and abuse does seem to be a way of life, AKA cultural practice. That kind of cultural practice has got to be destroyed.

I agree with that, but who is in a better position to understand what might need to change? Someone from outside the culture or someone within it? Mary is from the Amish and is constantly facing criticism from people who are not Amish and don't know anything about the Amish, except for the romanticized view of them.

Yes, self-examination is absulutely necessary for our daily life, and it certainly is important to consider whether various aspects of our culture are truly better, or if they are just different.

What is the purpose of going to all nations and preaching the gospel if we have nothing better to offer the heathen that what they already have?

I don't disagree with that, but who decides that what is being offered is actually better? Was acculturating indigenous people to Western culture really offering them something better or was it confusing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with Western culture?

There of course have been many different types of "missionaries" over the years, but I think it's fair to say that it wasn't the work of Christian missionaries that traumatized native communities or that contributed to the wretchedness in communities today.

I disagree. While I think Christian missionaries in the past were probably sincere in their desire to reach indigenous people, they also carried with them their biases and prejudices. There's plenty of documentation that Christians were directly involved in US policy to wipe out indigenous culture and they saw that acculturation as part of the mission to spread the Gospel. One of the things I noticed in seminary is that there has been a lot of soul-searching in missiology and an attempt to make corrections to the past by emphasizing culturally literate forms of evangelism instead of trying to force everyone into the same box.