No human remains found 2 years after claims of ‘mass graves’ in Canada

[Szdfan]

I know people whose family members didn't come back from residential school. I know a man who was sexually assaulted at a residential school to the extent that he was incapable of producing children.

The entire purpose of these schools was to separate native children from their families and to raise them in a white culture, thereby destroying native culture.

These kids were often kidnapped by the Canadian and American governments and forced to attend these schools without the consent of their families.

According to Article 2, Section E of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, kidnapping children en masse in order to assimilate them into another a culture is genocide. Regardless of whether the allegations of mass graves is true or not, the residential schools were part of a program of genocide against native people.

Have you ever been on a reserve here in Canada?

When children as young as 2 years old are wandering the street with parents inside passed out or shooting up and someone comes along builds a school and tries to educate and feed these abused and neglected children - you call that genocide? Wow!

It is time for people to actually come here and see for yourself. If you want something done come and support our CA church plants that have labored for years trying to help these people get out from under pagan evil witchcraft practices that have them bound in sexually abusing their own daughters and nieces as sex toys.

I am not saying that the government has done anything right. Nor am I saying that any person professing Christ has been faultless in this but it is clear that there is a severe need and many have desired to help the abused native children and they then get falsely accused of being worse or all wrong when that just simple is not true.

I haven't been to reservations in Canada, but I've been to reservations in Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona. I assume that some of the same problems that happen on reservations in Canada happen in the US as well. I've visited what used to be called the Hopi Mission School in Kykotsmovi Village, Arizona. The school is affiliated with MCUSA and I had a college friend spend a year in VS there.

While there are issues with HMS, I don't think it's in the same category as the residential schools. While the school does have some boarders, the majority of its students are from the community. That wasn't the case with the residential schools -- their intention was to separate children from their families and assimilate them. The most famous residential school is the Carlisle Indian Industrial School in Pennsylvania, which included thousands of children from the Lakota, Ojibwe, Cherokee, Apache, Cheyenne, Alaska Native, Iroquois Seneca and Oneida tribes. Why send children thousands of miles from their families to Pennsylvania unless the point is to intentionally sever and weaken their family relationships in order to assimilate them into another culture? Those policies fit the modern definition of genocide.

Your response reminds me of Richard Henry Pratt's (founder of Carlisle) motto: "Kill the Indian, save the man." Yes, the situations on the reservations are often desperate, but why are they that way? What happens to a people who have had their land stolen, their children acculturated and their culture repressed? What kind of trauma has US and Canadian policy inflicted on the native tribes over the past few hundred years that now manifests itself in the kind of dysfunctions you're describing? What role have Christian missionaries played in that trauma?

The residential schools were part of a genocidal policy by the US and Canadian governments to eradicate the indigenous cultures. That is a historical fact. We are now living with the consequences of those policies.

[Szdfan]

There is a certain line of thinking that treats certain cultures as "curiosities" and demands that they should be left alone to continue whatever culture they already have. As an example I submit a recent article by The NY Timesdiscussing the last two members of the Piripura tribe. There is a group of people dedicated to "observing" them, within the last few years they forcibly abducted the two men and took them to the city so they could perform surgery on one of them, taking them to visit villages with girls and women in hopes of convincing the younger man to father some children, etc. The tone of the article is pretty much that these men are being treated like zoo animals.

There seems to be a similar thought process by some regarding the culture of the indigenous peoples of North America - let them live in squalor and continue to abuse their women and children because this is part of their culture. Fact is - not all cultures are equally valid - some cultural practices need to be destroyed.

"Some" is a good way to qualify it. Those practices that destroy the dignity of the individual (incest; substance abuse; violent abuse) certainly do that.

Would you say that the widespread problem of sexual abuse in Christian churches (including the Catholic Church) is a cultural practice? Or is it something else? When is sexual abuse a cultural practice? How do you know it is the result of cultural practices?

[Szdfan]

It is time for people to actually come here and see for yourself. If you want something done come and support our CA church plants that have labored for years trying to help these people get out from under pagan evil witchcraft practices that have them bound in sexually abusing their own daughters and nieces as sex toys.

I'm not opposed to Christian missions, but I do think that mission programs today need to be careful because of the fact that they have historically been used as tools of colonialism and imperialism. So for example, instead of sending lots of missionaries to Africa, Mennonite Board of Missions tries to support local churches and indigenous denominations as equal partners. I had an uncle and aunt do a stint in Kenya developing curriculum to train local pastors. I'm myself a former missionary kid. My Dad continues to work for the Russian Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists and is currently in the process of arranging a delegation to visit the Baptist Church in China as part of their efforts to build relationships between the two denominations. I think that's appropriate.

At a minimum, I think missionaries need to understand and respect the culture they are evangelizing to. We Christians also have a problem with sexual abuse and incest and I don't think are in a position to condemn other religions until we fix our own problems. I believe helping native people out of cycles of abuse is a Godly and loving thing to do (as it is to help anyone). I also think that believing our own culture is superior to those we are evangelizing and that mission work is not just about leading people to Christ, but also acculturating them to our culture probably causes more harm than it helps.

Are these CA missions partnering with local indigenous churches and sharing Christ within the local cultural context or are they trying to import (impose?) CA culture as well?

[NedFlanders]

It is time for people to actually come here and see for yourself. If you want something done come and support our CA church plants that have labored for years trying to help these people get out from under pagan evil witchcraft practices that have them bound in sexually abusing their own daughters and nieces as sex toys.

It is quite rich for someone to be claiming it is Native American religions that sexually abuse children. When in point of fact church and government-run boarding schools have a well documented history of pervasive sexual abuse of children. As well as physical abuse, abusive child labor, and a host of other abuses.

What is your evidence for the assertion that traditional Native American religions are centered on the sexual abuse of children?

What you see on reservations today in the US and Canada is the culmination of a century-long government effort to undermine and destroy native cultures and communities. Combined with endless broken treaties and obligations. Much of it motivated by greed and the desire to expropriate native lands and resources. They result is not surprising: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... hools.html

My evidence is NOT the internet. Show me some evidence for the mass graves - oops not working out... My evidence is go onto a reserve today and see the evidence yourself. And blaming others for everything is a culture aspect in itself - you are doing harm by picking sides instead of pointing to truth and personal responsibility.

[NedFlanders]

It is time for people to actually come here and see for yourself. If you want something done come and support our CA church plants that have labored for years trying to help these people get out from under pagan evil witchcraft practices that have them bound in sexually abusing their own daughters and nieces as sex toys.

I'm not opposed to Christian missions, but I do think that mission programs today need to be careful because of the fact that they have historically been used as tools of colonialism and imperialism. So for example, instead of sending lots of missionaries to Africa, Mennonite Board of Missions tries to support local churches and indigenous denominations as equal partners. I had an uncle and aunt do a stint in Kenya developing curriculum to train local pastors. I'm myself a former missionary kid. My Dad continues to work for the Russian Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists and is currently in the process of arranging a delegation to visit the Baptist Church in China as part of their efforts to build relationships between the two denominations. I think that's appropriate.

At a minimum, I think missionaries need to understand and respect the culture they are evangelizing to. We Christians also have a problem with sexual abuse and incest and I don't think are in a position to condemn other religions until we fix our own problems. I believe helping native people out of cycles of abuse is a Godly and loving thing to do (as it is to help anyone). I also think that believing our own culture is superior to those we are evangelizing and that mission work is not just about leading people to Christ, but also acculturating them to our culture probably causes more harm than it helps.

Are these CA missions partnering with local indigenous churches and sharing Christ within the local cultural context or are they trying to import (impose?) CA culture as well?

What do you mean cultural context?
A biblical church creates a culture in itself of love, compassion, sacrifice of self, worship of God in all things - as God defines these things.
Are you saying CA churches should taking on smudging practices and the like? - these things often if not all have a background of the worship of others gods.
So far the draw back into such deep carnality of fornication and drugs on the reserves has made efforts to help natives futile without them choosing themselves to moving far away from there cultural context - if they don't move away I haven't heard of any not falling back into darkness.

[ken_sylvania]

It is time for people to actually come here and see for yourself. If you want something done come and support our CA church plants that have labored for years trying to help these people get out from under pagan evil witchcraft practices that have them bound in sexually abusing their own daughters and nieces as sex toys.

I'm not opposed to Christian missions, but I do think that mission programs today need to be careful because of the fact that they have historically been used as tools of colonialism and imperialism. So for example, instead of sending lots of missionaries to Africa, Mennonite Board of Missions tries to support local churches and indigenous denominations as equal partners. I had an uncle and aunt do a stint in Kenya developing curriculum to train local pastors. I'm myself a former missionary kid. My Dad continues to work for the Russian Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists and is currently in the process of arranging a delegation to visit the Baptist Church in China as part of their efforts to build relationships between the two denominations. I think that's appropriate.

At a minimum, I think missionaries need to understand and respect the culture they are evangelizing to. We Christians also have a problem with sexual abuse and incest and I don't think are in a position to condemn other religions until we fix our own problems. I believe helping native people out of cycles of abuse is a Godly and loving thing to do (as it is to help anyone). I also think that believing our own culture is superior to those we are evangelizing and that mission work is not just about leading people to Christ, but also acculturating them to our culture probably causes more harm than it helps.

Are these CA missions partnering with local indigenous churches and sharing Christ within the local cultural context or are they trying to import (impose?) CA culture as well?

I 100% agree that a person who has a problem with sexual abuse or incest is not in a position to evangelize. I completely disagree with the implication that no conservative Anabaptist is fit to preach against false religions until there is no sin left among CAs. If that were the case, Jesus Christ himself would be disqualified as an evangelist because he had a disciple who was a thief.

[Ken]

It is time for people to actually come here and see for yourself. If you want something done come and support our CA church plants that have labored for years trying to help these people get out from under pagan evil witchcraft practices that have them bound in sexually abusing their own daughters and nieces as sex toys.

It is quite rich for someone to be claiming it is Native American religions that sexually abuse children. When in point of fact church and government-run boarding schools have a well documented history of pervasive sexual abuse of children. As well as physical abuse, abusive child labor, and a host of other abuses.

What is your evidence for the assertion that traditional Native American religions are centered on the sexual abuse of children?

What you see on reservations today in the US and Canada is the culmination of a century-long government effort to undermine and destroy native cultures and communities. Combined with endless broken treaties and obligations. Much of it motivated by greed and the desire to expropriate native lands and resources. They result is not surprising: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... hools.html

My evidence is NOT the internet. Show me some evidence for the mass graves - oops not working out... My evidence is go onto a reserve today and see the evidence yourself. And blaming others for everything is a culture aspect in itself - you are doing harm by picking sides instead of pointing to truth and personal responsibility.

I've never made any accusations about mass graves. The evidence for such things was always fairly slim and never really made sense. Mass graves are usually the consequence of mass casualty events from things like war crimes. Not from decades-long histories of abuse. But the fact that none were discovered in the 0.000001% of lands around historic Indian schools that were searched doesn't really prove anything either. In any event, there are more than enough well documented cases of abuse and mistreatment to be horrified at the historic legacy of residential Indian schools. Those schools that still exist have largely turned things around and are vastly improved from what existed in the past. So we have made progress.

I have actually been to many different reservations and I have friends who have worked in Indian schools. I also spent many years working directly with many different native communities in Alaska in the development of a large-scale fisheries-related economic development program called the Community Development Quota (CDQ) program. Look it up if you like. https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/alaska/s ... dq-program or https://smea.uw.edu/currents/alaskas-cdq-program/ So I think I am in a position to have informed opinions about Native American culture and governance.

Picking sides? What do you think are the sides in this discussion? The culturally superior White side and the culturally inferior Native side? Are those the sides you see? That is certainly the gist of your comments.

[NedFlanders]

It is quite rich for someone to be claiming it is Native American religions that sexually abuse children. When in point of fact church and government-run boarding schools have a well documented history of pervasive sexual abuse of children. As well as physical abuse, abusive child labor, and a host of other abuses.

What is your evidence for the assertion that traditional Native American religions are centered on the sexual abuse of children?

What you see on reservations today in the US and Canada is the culmination of a century-long government effort to undermine and destroy native cultures and communities. Combined with endless broken treaties and obligations. Much of it motivated by greed and the desire to expropriate native lands and resources. They result is not surprising: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... hools.html

My evidence is NOT the internet. Show me some evidence for the mass graves - oops not working out... My evidence is go onto a reserve today and see the evidence yourself. And blaming others for everything is a culture aspect in itself - you are doing harm by picking sides instead of pointing to truth and personal responsibility.

I've never made any accusations about mass graves. The evidence for such things was always fairly slim and never really made sense. Mass graves are usually the consequence of mass casualty events from things like war crimes. Not from decades-long histories of abuse. But the fact that none were discovered in the 0.000001% of lands around historic Indian schools that were searched doesn't really prove anything either. In any event, there are more than enough well documented cases of abuse and mistreatment to be horrified at the historic legacy of residential Indian schools. Those schools that still exist have largely turned things around and are vastly improved from what existed in the past. So we have made progress.

I have actually been to many different reservations and I have friends who have worked in Indian schools. I also spent many years working directly with many different native communities in Alaska in the development of a large-scale fisheries-related economic development program called the Community Development Quota (CDQ) program. Look it up if you like. https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/alaska/s ... dq-program or https://smea.uw.edu/currents/alaskas-cdq-program/ So I think I am in a position to have informed opinions about Native American culture and governance.

Picking sides? What do you think are the sides in this discussion? The culturally superior White side and the culturally inferior Native side? Are those the sides you see? That is certainly the gist of your comments.

That's because of your perspective.

Truth - being on the side of truth is what I am encouraging.

Too many assumptions encourage many reactions.

Let's point to Christ - oops that automatically confuses people who think somehow that is white culture or oppressive or abusive or think I mean CA...

I have no side with government or superior white or residential schools or Catholics or even the Protestant residential schools, or even with my own group as a CA. Rather one should side with Christ - which for me results in being part of the CA's because of a stand and commitment to Christ not because CA is a culture of its own.

[MaxPC]

I 100% agree that a person who has a problem with sexual abuse or incest is not in a position to evangelize. I completely disagree with the implication that no conservative Anabaptist is fit to preach against false religions until there is no sin left among CAs. If that were the case, Jesus Christ himself would be disqualified as an evangelist because he had a disciple who was a thief.

Agreed. Likewise I find it hypocritical that those who would defend the false narrative re these schools and religious groups forcing themselves on another culture are themselves trying to force acceptance of homosexuals and sexual perversions on their own faith communities.

[Neto]

There is a certain line of thinking that treats certain cultures as "curiosities" and demands that they should be left alone to continue whatever culture they already have. As an example I submit a recent article by The NY Timesdiscussing the last two members of the Piripura tribe. There is a group of people dedicated to "observing" them, within the last few years they forcibly abducted the two men and took them to the city so they could perform surgery on one of them, taking them to visit villages with girls and women in hopes of convincing the younger man to father some children, etc. The tone of the article is pretty much that these men are being treated like zoo animals.

There seems to be a similar thought process by some regarding the culture of the indigenous peoples of North America - let them live in squalor and continue to abuse their women and children because this is part of their culture. Fact is - not all cultures are equally valid - some cultural practices need to be destroyed.

I hadn't read any of this thread until now, and looked first at the currently last page. What I saw is that it wasn't about what I thought it was referring to. I don't know how recently the Canadian government forcibly separated children from their First Nations parents and culture, and put them into these boarding schools, but my acquaintance with this subject in the States, and specifically in Oklahoma Territory and in the early history of the state, deals with a period when the Plains Indians were newly "pacified" by the US government. My Cheyenne language teacher had been taken and put in one of these schools. She was put into a Mennonite-run school, in fact. She told me that she didn't understand (as a child) why she and the other Cheyenne children were not allowed to wear their own clothing, or speak their own language among themselves, on the playground, even. I don't fault the Mennonite missionaries who had set up this school. It was done due to a Federal law aimed at assimilating the Indians by force. They had basically given up on doing anything with the adults, and thought that they could make a faster transition by stealing the children. Better in a Christian school than in a secular government school, with administrators and teachers who didn't really care for the children. (I do not intend to say that there were no exceptions.)

Are all cultures 'fallen"? I would say yes. Are some "more fallen than others"? To the extent that some have had little Christian influence, I would also answer this question in the affirmative. But it's more complicated than that. When we first met the Banawa, even though they had not experienced any meaningful influence from Christianity, there were some parts of the culture that were far more "moral" than Western cultures that have had centuries of contact with Christianity.

Cultural mores and practices need to be transformed by the Gospel. And yes, some practices and values are so depraved that they need to be eliminated. But this can only be done through the work of the Holy Spirit - if a missionary goes in and just begins to openly oppose or condemn certain practices, having judged it before understanding it, they will loose their opportunity to learn about its meaning, and will generally only succeed in driving it "underground", at least while the missionaries are present. (No one can plan to always "be there".) Every culture borrows things from other cultures, if they see that the new practice or value is better. That takes time. It takes lots of listening before an outsider can understand the values that lie behind even seemingly purely wicked practices. Sometimes the goal is good, and it is only the method that is bad.

So, after "blowing all of this wind", I will say that these government programs were, at their core, ill conceived ethnocentric attempts to destroy the native cultures. The churches and missionaries that ran these schools may have shared in these attitudes to some extent, but I think that their over-all attitudes were much kinder.