Sattler College Turmoil

[Judas Maccabeus]

Sattler has no church attendance requirements besides encouraging students to find church fellowship during their time in Boston. There's no approved church list, and no one is tracking which churches students are attending.

Do you actually expect anyone to believe that?

There is more than subtle pressure to attend FOW. BTW, I have been to Boston at least 4X.

Relax my man, I'm sure even brothereicher knows his transparent attempts to misrepresent the institution he works for are useless against anyone who has been to Boston 4X.

That is an answer to the suggestion that you really don’t know what is going on unless you have visited…..and I have. Still looking for those elusive lab facilities. I hope those students in those farmed out labs got enough exposure to make it through their first preclinical year. Obviously, the jury is still out. I graduated from a 2+2 program for mu B.S, and in third year anatomy they expected you to have a high degree of skill and knowledge on day one. They did not wait, too much to cover, too little time. I just hope these farmed out labs gave them that, if not, they have done these students a huge disservice. Time will tell.

I am from one of the conferences that has seen students go there. I will do whatever I can to discourage any in the future. Actions speak louder than words. The reaction to a Mennonite church being planted there says it all.

In my estimation, FOW is theologically simply a recycling of the ICOC with headcoverings. Once again, you think a student dependent on financial aid that comes ultimately from the college benefactor is going to make waves? I just wonder why the state has not pulled their accreditation due to instability of the governing board. I have seen it happen for less.

[brothereicher]

So that's a no then?

Invitation is still open.

Sattler College does not own laboratory facilities, nor does it pretend to.

Our students are able to use lab facilities at several colleges in Boston.
The fact that we don't own the facilities doesn't keep our students from getting an education that prepares them for amazing careers that have included grad school, med school, PA school, and jobs at laboratories within Boston. We've had students who participated in research studies and even been named in peer-reviewed journal articles.

The fact remains that Sattler is making it possible for students to receive a world-class education for a fraction of the cost of many other colleges.

Once again, I invite you to come to Sattler and see for yourself.

Have been there. Sattler has no lab facilities, farms out its labs to other schools.

All that has been proven by the fact that students have been admitted to med school is that somehow, you managed to teach them to score high enough on the MCAT to attract attention of admissions officers. Let’s come back in a year and see how well they do in their first year of preclinical.

Personally I would not send anyone there, to get an expensive education they could easily get in your state universities, and remain under the spiritual care of those who care for them, rather than those who seek to build a movement through separating youth from parents and church, and filling them with nonsense like baptismal regeneration.

Don’t even try to deny it. Sattler and FOW are essentially one and the same. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Ok. Let's check back in a year and see how Sattler students have done in their preclinicals.

If they are doing well, are you willing to agree to retract what you've said here? If not, this is just an exercise in continually moving the goalposts, and you should be honest about that.

As I've said before, Sattler isn't for everyone and it sounds like you have options that you'd prefer, so that's great.

[brothereicher]

Do you actually expect anyone to believe that?

There is more than subtle pressure to attend FOW. BTW, I have been to Boston at least 4X.

Relax my man, I'm sure even brothereicher knows his transparent attempts to misrepresent the institution he works for are useless against anyone who has been to Boston 4X.

I am from one of the conferences that has seen students go there. I will do whatever I can to discourage any in the future. Actions speak louder than words. The reaction to a Mennonite church being planted there says it all.

In my estimation, FOW is theologically simply a recycling of the ICOC with headcoverings. Once again, you think a student dependent on financial aid that comes ultimately from the college benefactor is going to make waves? I just wonder why the state has not pulled their accreditation due to instability of the governing board. I have seen it happen for less.

Your last two paragraphs make it clear that your real problem with Sattler is ideological, rather than educational. Once again, that's fine. Not everyone likes everything or everyone, and you may be uncomfortable with Sattler's ties to FOTW.

Just be honest about that.
It's OK.

I likely wouldn't send my kid to a school run by Catholics. But that's different than claiming that the Catholic school has garbage education, in the face of the students from that school having some pretty impressive accomplishments.

(I came back to make one more edit. College students make waves all the time for all kinds of reasons. You should know, having been one. People who receive government funding complain about the government. Do you think that somehow Sattler has a mechanism for monitoring student opinions and adjusting their financial aid accordingly?)

[Judas Maccabeus]

Invitation is still open.

Sattler College does not own laboratory facilities, nor does it pretend to.

Our students are able to use lab facilities at several colleges in Boston.
The fact that we don't own the facilities doesn't keep our students from getting an education that prepares them for amazing careers that have included grad school, med school, PA school, and jobs at laboratories within Boston. We've had students who participated in research studies and even been named in peer-reviewed journal articles.

The fact remains that Sattler is making it possible for students to receive a world-class education for a fraction of the cost of many other colleges.

Once again, I invite you to come to Sattler and see for yourself.

Have been there. Sattler has no lab facilities, farms out its labs to other schools.

All that has been proven by the fact that students have been admitted to med school is that somehow, you managed to teach them to score high enough on the MCAT to attract attention of admissions officers. Let’s come back in a year and see how well they do in their first year of preclinical.

Personally I would not send anyone there, to get an expensive education they could easily get in your state universities, and remain under the spiritual care of those who care for them, rather than those who seek to build a movement through separating youth from parents and church, and filling them with nonsense like baptismal regeneration.

Don’t even try to deny it. Sattler and FOW are essentially one and the same. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Ok. Let's check back in a year and see how Sattler students have done in their preclinicals.

If they are doing well, are you willing to agree to retract what you've said here? If not, this is just an exercise in continually moving the goalposts, and you should be honest about that.

As I've said before, Sattler isn't for everyone and it sounds like you have options that you'd prefer, so that's great.

If they are at the top quarter of their class in anatomy practicum, and you can prove that, I would. Remember, you are advertising an elite education. However, labs are foundational to science education, and especially as it translates to healthcare. You don’t think hands on science is important enough to invest in, that is fine. But don’t say you are giving an elite education if you subcontract that most important part of the student experience out. If I were a subcontractor the economic incentive is to never fail a student. Ever.

If I recall correctly, A & P was where the marginal students were pushed out of healthcare programs. The labs were brutal, and you had to get it right, it was so easy to totally mess things up. Maybe your students have picked up the skills they need. Maybe not.

You will know in a year or two.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Relax my man, I'm sure even brothereicher knows his transparent attempts to misrepresent the institution he works for are useless against anyone who has been to Boston 4X.

I am from one of the conferences that has seen students go there. I will do whatever I can to discourage any in the future. Actions speak louder than words. The reaction to a Mennonite church being planted there says it all.

In my estimation, FOW is theologically simply a recycling of the ICOC with headcoverings. Once again, you think a student dependent on financial aid that comes ultimately from the college benefactor is going to make waves? I just wonder why the state has not pulled their accreditation due to instability of the governing board. I have seen it happen for less.

Your last two paragraphs make it clear that your real problem with Sattler is ideological, rather than educational. Once again, that's fine. Not everyone likes everything or everyone, and you may be uncomfortable with Sattler's ties to FOTW.

Just be honest about that.
It's OK.

I likely wouldn't send my kid to a school run by Catholics. But that's different than claiming that the Catholic school has garbage education, in the face of the students from that school having some pretty impressive accomplishments.

(I came back to make one more edit. College students make waves all the time for all kinds of reasons. You should know, having been one. People who receive government funding complain about the government. Do you think that somehow Sattler has a mechanism for monitoring student opinions and adjusting their financial aid accordingly?)

Sattler = FOTW. The controlling ideology is restoration movement or Stone-Campbell. The money is being invested to start a movement based on cherry picking the best and brightest out of our churches, and indoctrinating them in FOTW theology with their parents and church out of the picture. If it walks like a duck and quacks, it is a duck.

The fact that FOTW sermons are no longer available is telling. They don’t have an official statement of faith either, at least not that I can find after much effort. That is significant.

[Soloist]

Sattler = FOTW. The controlling ideology is restoration movement or Stone-Campbell. The money is being invested to start a movement based on cherry picking the best and brightest out of our churches, and indoctrinating them in FOTW theology with their parents and church out of the picture. If it walks like a duck and quacks, it is a duck.

The fact that FOTW sermons are no longer available is telling. They don’t have an official statement of faith either, at least not that I can find after much effort. That is significant.

I think the sermon availability has more to do with their internal problems.

[Ernie]

Yes, I caught the attempt at clever sarcasm. My understanding is that a straw that broke the camel's back and caused the mass resignations was Dean Taylor wanted to start or supported starting a BMA-type church for BMA-type students. Finny opposed this strenuously enough that it wasn't viable for Dean to continue as president. So in effect, the proposed BMA-type church plant was on Finny's naughty list. Please inform me if these facts are inaccurate.

In fact, Dean did not want to start a BMA-type church. And the FOTW founders did not care if he started a BMA church. What they did not want is two former FOTW members starting a "kingdom Christian church" that practiced communion every Sunday, etc. Yes, Dean could have proceeded anyhow, but he had no energy for starting a church that was going to be opposed by FOTW. He was aware of how the other kingdom Christian church in Boston was treated by the founders and was only going to start a church that had the blessing of the FOTW founders.

Yes, many students have felt pressure the last five years to join and stay with FOTW despite the official word that neither Sattler nor FOTW pressures people to join FOTW. This pressure was one piece of why many people have left Sattler and FOTW the past year and a half.

The founder of Sattler took me and another brother downtown on one occasion just ahead of Sattler launching. He showed us the building where the Evangelical movement was birthed. He explained that he has studied movements and that every movement needs a church, a publishing arm, and an educational institution.

In order to be successful, I would add a fourth component, "It needs charactered leaders, accountable leaders, who are also competent in governance".
If the movement draws in the wrong people, any movement is going to falter.

[NedFlanders]

I’m a bit surprised so much stock is put into Dean leaving…. Doesn’t his track record show he jumps from church to church to new and exciting every few years? I’d be more concerned why he was even selected for such a position at Sattler and the short sightedness in that over than why he left - is it a wrong observation to say he leaves everything every time.

I think the efforts to be a positive transitional church to get people to grow closer to Christ is noble but there is a threat and reality that when people keep transitioning it really becomes unstable and too often there are much more losses in the end when this goes on….

[Josh]

I’m a bit surprised so much stock is put into Dean leaving…. Doesn’t his track record show he jumps from church to church to new and exciting every few years?

I wouldn’t say that he does. I would say it is accurate he has left fellowships that became too worldly (like the Charity / Ephrata Christian Fellowships situation). He also felt convicted to try to live in a community of goods and did in Minnesota. He then later went to do mission service in Greece. I don’t think going to the mission is “jumping from church to church”.

I’d be more concerned why he was even selected for such a position at Sattler and the short sightedness in that over than why he left - is it a wrong observation to say he leaves everything every time.

What is the “short sightedness over why he left?” No official statement was given publicly for him leaving, but you can ask him directly yourself if you want to know.

Yes, that is a wrong observation.

I think the efforts to be a positive transitional church to get people to grow closer to Christ is noble but there is a threat and reality that when people keep transitioning it really becomes unstable and too often there are much more losses in the end when this goes on….

Yes, this is a challenge for anyone from the world who tries to join a plain church and is a large part of the reason I’m with the Holdemans.

[joshuabgood]

My understanding is that a straw that broke the camel's back and caused the mass resignations was Dean Taylor wanted to start or supported starting a BMA-type church for BMA-type students. Finny opposed this strenuously enough that it wasn't viable for Dean to continue as president. So in effect, the proposed BMA-type church plant was on Finny's naughty list. Please inform me if these facts are inaccurate.

I'm guessing you and BrotherEicher see the turmoil as a result of an attempted Mennonite takeover which was successfully rebuffed. I'm making assumptions here. Is that accurate?

This really isn't my circus, but I find the bait-and-switch from Boston to be tiresome.

I'm not in a position to opine on the details of negotiations for which I was neither present nor in a position to see the minutes. My understanding is that there was some significant difference in vision regarding Sattler's potential involvement in sponsoring a Mennonite church, and that Dean and Finny—both men I respect—did not see eye to eye on this issue, triggering a controversial series of events which will likely always be remembered and recounted differently by different people involved.

What I am certain of from speaking with closely involved friends is that neither Finny nor anyone else I'm aware of in current or past leadership at Sattler has ever opposed the establishment of a Mennonite church in Boston on principle. Everyone I know who lives in Boston is well aware that it's a big city, not to mention a fun one, with room for any number of Plain churches, provided they can supply the bodies to colonize them.

I've been told consistently that Sattler leadership (as well as the FOTW core) would be relieved if a Mennonite church not dependent on Sattler were to launch there, so that students who are more comfortable with a traditionally Anabaptist setting and theology could have a familiar church home. The disadvantages of having FOTW as the only Anabapt-ish local church option for Plain Sattler students are obvious to everyone, I believe, and have been noted by my friends in Boston since essentially the launch of Sattler.

But whether any of that is correct or not, the claim that Finny is preventing Mennos from planting churches in Boston would require him to have some sort of power to determine which churches do or do not get planted. And to see such an idea apparently being treated as established fact in Sattler-curious Plain circles strikes me as ludicrous in the extreme.

The complexity, at least partially, resided in the complexity of Dean being employed by Finny and also being led spiritually, re church leadership, by Finny. And also being in the FOTW real estate nexus.

For various difficult personal and professional complications, from Finny's perspective, it didn't make sense for Dean in particular to start a church, which he shared clearly with Dean. Because Finny was the pastor employer, and real estate guru, that perspective came with a force.

From Dean and the boards perspective, Finny was prioritizing the FOTW over the stated goals of Sattler. Further, without getting in the weeds, Sattler dealt very unprofessionally in the least, and flat wrongfully in the worst, with Marlon Weaver. Long story short, further related complications resulted in additional board resignations and many people leaving FoTW. Those complications are still playing out.

Having a new board with a new board chair is a clear step in the right direction. The question remains if the dog will wag the proverbial tail or the other way around. Time will tell.