Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

[Ernie]

About a year or so ago, a man said, "I'm convinced that we should not be baptizing people too soon." To which I replied, "I agree with that. But should we also be sure to not baptize someone too late?" He agreed.

I realize that humans don't get it all right and I can have a lot of grace for people who realize this but are still trying really hard to do the right thing.
But whenever polity and procedure and sectarianism get in the way of doing the right thing, and blindly defend these things, then I think they can be guilty of persecution.

[Ernie]

So its obvious that MN doesn't think that the word persecution fits what I am describing. So I consider whether there is another word or phrase that communicates what I think Jesus is really unhappy about.

[Josh]

I respect all groups and only choke on groups that require rebaptism.

I find it interesting that someone would open communion to anyone except… well, me.

I attended a Mid-West church’s baptism yesterday and extended the right hand of fellowship to the 4 converts and the Christian greeting to one of them, plus to another member there who is someone I know.

Holdemans are advised not to attend other groups' baptisms.

I would concur with that advice. It is possible to support the young converts’ decision to follow the Lord whilst not affirming whatever is going on at that particular congregation…

[Josh]

I respect all groups and only choke on groups that require rebaptism.

I find it interesting that someone would open communion to anyone except… well, me.

I attended a Mid-West church’s baptism yesterday and extended the right hand of fellowship to the 4 converts and the Christian greeting to one of them, plus to another member there who is someone I know.

I was under the impression from occasionally attending down in Livingston/Winton back in the day that the COGICM did not permit their members to greet those outside of the Church (as defined by their membership). Is that incorrect, has it changed, or does your conscience simply lead you to disregard that particular restriction?

The hard and fast restriction is against participating in another organisations’s communion. One should be very cautious to restrict the greeting to those who are “brothers in Christ” or “brothers in the faith”, the former being people who aren’t cogicm church members. One needs to have a rather strong acquaintance with what is happening in someone’s spiritual life to feel that degree of confidence when they aren’t fellow church members, particularly if they are stuck in a church that is frankly apostate.

Since some people decided to greet me even when I wasn’t a cogicm member, I decided I would do the same after I became a cogicm member. I don’t attend and participate in other people’s communions. (The last one I was present at was a Catholic Mass of the Tridentine Latin variety and I can assure you nobody there wanted me to commune with them, both they and I being quite confident that doing so would mean each of our immediate spiritual destruction.

I think you missed reading my last post and my first on. Episcopalians and MC USA folks do not have the same view of communion that I do in the slightest. Most would consider me a fundamentalist, a bigot, etc.

Yet they have an open communion policy, so it is prudent to see the fruit that comes from people and groups who think communion needs to be open with no examination and no right to question anything.

And am I understanding you correctly that you are blaming their "fruit" primarily on their open communion policies?

No. But I grew up around organisations with open communion practices, and my experience is it makes it basically meaningless as a group activity, and instead is simply a private ceremony between each believer and God. And unfortunately I know for a fact that such open communions had people participating who were living in grave sin.

I see no problem at all with someone like Ernie organising a church conference of sorts of like minded congregations who feel comfortable communing with one another and even registering various people from another “conference” as associate members in good standing. In fact I think that’s a great idea.

[ohio jones]

So its obvious that MN doesn't think that the word persecution fits what I am describing. So I consider whether there is another word or phrase that communicates what I think Jesus is really unhappy about.

Mistreatment, unkindness, deprivation, discourtesy, injustice, prejudice?

[ken_sylvania]

So its obvious that MN doesn't think that the word persecution fits what I am describing. So I consider whether there is another word or phrase that communicates what I think Jesus is really unhappy about.

Possibly snobbishness, although I really don't see a substantive difference between your current practice vs. the traditional practice you are decrying. The details of how the lines are drawn are somewhat different and the bar is somewhat lower, but as I see it you are fundamentally doing the same thing the Mennonites and Brethren have done for a century or more.

[Ken]

So its obvious that MN doesn't think that the word persecution fits what I am describing. So I consider whether there is another word or phrase that communicates what I think Jesus is really unhappy about.

Mistreatment, unkindness, deprivation, discourtesy, injustice, prejudice?

Exclusivity, exclusionary, closed, preferential.

Every religious group does it. They just pick different issues or criteria for where they draw their lines.

[RZehr]

If someone is forced to participate in religious rituals he does not want to participate in or denied participation in religious rituals he wants to participate in and the founder of his religion wants him to participate in these things with these people, I think this is wrong. And it came to me the other day that perhaps this is religious/spiritual persecution.

I don’t understand what you are saying here. Someone is forced to participate or not in something that the founder of his religion wants him…What?

[Ernie]

If someone is forced to participate in religious rituals he does not want to participate in or denied participation in religious rituals he wants to participate in and the founder of his religion wants him to participate in these things with these people, I think this is wrong. And it came to me the other day that perhaps this is religious/spiritual persecution.

I don’t understand what you are saying here. Someone is forced to participate or not in something that the founder of his religion wants him…What?

I'll try to enlarge on this point...

There have been times in Christian history when churches have forced the population to be baptized and be part of the church.
There have been times in Christian history when churches have not permitted people to commune with them or permitted their members to commune with others - others who have basically the same doctrine and practice and worldview.

I think that Jesus as the author and head of the church is grieved with both.

[Ernie]

So its obvious that MN doesn't think that the word persecution fits what I am describing. So I consider whether there is another word or phrase that communicates what I think Jesus is really unhappy about.

Possibly snobbishness, although I really don't see a substantive difference between your current practice vs. the traditional practice you are decrying. The details of how the lines are drawn are somewhat different and the bar is somewhat lower, but as I see it you are fundamentally doing the same thing the Mennonites and Brethren have done for a century or more.

I'm doing the same thing because I am not communing with everybody?

I think what Mennonites and Brethren of similar doctrine and practice have been doing for over a century, grieves Jesus.

The key distinction I am trying to make is similar vs. dissimilar.